google maps - street view

Feigan · Post by **Feigan** » Thu Aug 07, 2008 4:50 pm

^ See Al - you've got nothing to worry about

Post by **breaksRbest** » Thu Aug 07, 2008 5:28 pm

Direktor wrote:Wow!

Google will delete your house from 'street view' if you request it.
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/ ... 61,00.html

I still can't figure out why ya would though?

Probably teh same paranoid types that wear tinfoil on their heads to stop the aliens stealing their thoughts

Direkt · Post by **Direkt** » Thu Aug 07, 2008 5:30 pm

Ha! Maybe...

I'm currently touring Watts, LA.

Have already visited Bed-Stuy, Brooklyn; Harlem and Compton, LA.

Goodtimes.

mixtress · Post by **mixtress** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 11:23 am

I'm gonna copyright my house. I'm getting paid every time some mofo looks up my house Goddammit

deviant · Post by **deviant** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 5:20 pm

crazy...

http://snipurl.com/3cqy8

deviant · Post by **deviant** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 6:10 pm

glitch...

merimbula nsw

Baby Ruth · Post by **Baby Ruth** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 11:14 pm

Has anyone else noticed that there are a few of the more "economically advantaged" areas that were not captured? I haven't read all the guff about this site, but were there some kind of agreements as to what areas may not have been photographed?

FunkyJ · Post by **FunkyJ** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 2:25 pm

almax wrote:Some have come to light in the papers today, a dude was caught sleeping in his work truck, another blokes car was photographed outside his mistress' house, pretty much confirming to his girlfriend he was cheating on him, another person discovered that a garage door was infact damaged by his neighbour even though his neighbour flatly denied ever parking in front of the garage door. So is this an invasion of privacy? from a legal point of view i would tend to think so.
I hope it stays though, i love it

In all these cases, it's people not being honest being caught out... Sucks to be them but they shouldn't have been lying and cheating in the first place.

I really can't see the negatives here.

Feigan · Post by **Feigan** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 2:27 pm

FunkyJ wrote:
almax wrote:Some have come to light in the papers today, a dude was caught sleeping in his work truck, another blokes car was photographed outside his mistress' house, pretty much confirming to his girlfriend he was cheating on him, another person discovered that a garage door was infact damaged by his neighbour even though his neighbour flatly denied ever parking in front of the garage door. So is this an invasion of privacy? from a legal point of view i would tend to think so.
I hope it stays though, i love it
In all these cases, it's people not being honest being caught out... Sucks to be them but they shouldn't have been lying and cheating in the first place.

I really can't see the negatives here.

spot on

deviant · Post by **deviant** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 2:33 pm

so, it turns out the guy asleep on the footpath had lost his mate in a boating accident just the week before

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2008/ ... 24273.html

Post by **huge** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 2:40 pm

hah. crazy.

check this one out.

almax · Post by **almax** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 2:43 pm

Feigan wrote:
FunkyJ wrote:
almax wrote:Some have come to light in the papers today, a dude was caught sleeping in his work truck, another blokes car was photographed outside his mistress' house, pretty much confirming to his girlfriend he was cheating on him, another person discovered that a garage door was infact damaged by his neighbour even though his neighbour flatly denied ever parking in front of the garage door. So is this an invasion of privacy? from a legal point of view i would tend to think so.
I hope it stays though, i love it
In all these cases, it's people not being honest being caught out... Sucks to be them but they shouldn't have been lying and cheating in the first place.

I really can't see the negatives here.
spot on

oh so you agree with a police state then?
Where is the line drawn, would you be happy for someone to put a microchip in your arm containing all your money, ID everything so you wouldnt need to carry around a wallet?
have a good think about it.

apophenian · Post by **apophenian** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 2:46 pm

Thats a bit extreme - how is limiting anyones right to take photographs in public any less of a police state?

deviant · Post by **deviant** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 2:49 pm

I really do feel for the dude passed out though after reading that article.

almax · Post by **almax** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 2:59 pm

apophenian wrote:Thats a bit extreme - how is limiting anyones right to take photographs in public any less of a police state?

maybe so, but little by little our rights are being stripped away from us. Its this now, then in 20 years time another invasion of privacy will occur like mandatory drug tests for all kids in high school and workers, then in another 20 years we could see that, due to limited petrol resources, you have to ask permission to drive on an extended trip out of the Urban smart growth centres and so on and so forth untill perhaps we have no privacy at all like the extreme example i gave.
I just think we should be careful as to what we give our consent to.

Feigan · Post by **Feigan** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:09 pm

you raise a good point Mr Maxwell.

Detail what you deem as police state though for me - the wallet/micro chip example doesn't do what you're saying justice i don't think....

I don't actually think the chip thing is that far off from happening really - or at least having access to it.

it's used for pets already I think isn't it for ID - councils offer this don't they?

some nightclub was getting chips inserted into people's arms for guestlist or something I think I remember reading? I'll try and find the article.

This could be a great technology for all of those people that have to chain there wallets to there pants though - no more lost wallets!!

I carry a wallet in my pocket with my money and my ID info in there which is in card format.

Would the only difference be that it's digital and in my arm versus being in card format and in my pocket?

both examples are "On person"

There's no difference other than the format of data storage is there?

It's not like anyone on the internet or in public can openly view my financial/id info, it's just in my arm, as it's the same if it's just in my pocket?

or have I just gotten loster than I was at the start?

Hatsudai · Post by **Hatsudai** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:14 pm

almax wrote: would you be happy for someone to put a microchip in your arm containing all your money, ID everything so you wouldnt need to carry around a wallet?

TBH that sounds pretty convenient to me, no more losing wallet, being mugged by heroin addicts on the train etc.

I am not too concerned if "Big Brother" knows I bought a mars bar at seven eleven at 3:15 in the morning.

Back on track, I love street view, I usually have to go to new places for work once or twice a week and havent gotten lost once since street view was introduced!

Post by **breaksRbest** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:21 pm

deviant wrote:so, it turns out the guy asleep on the footpath had lost his mate in a boating accident just the week before

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2008/ ... 24273.html

poor choice of words in teh article too....

"Bill - not his real name - had been drowning his sorrows over the weekend"

uummmmm, his mate just drowned. Could you not think of a better description for getting pissed?

almax · Post by **almax** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:23 pm

Feigan wrote: it's used for pets already I think isn't it for ID - councils offer this don't they?

some nightclub was getting chips inserted into people's arms for guestlist or something I think I remember reading? I'll try and find the article.

Oh ok so you would like to be the governments "pet" would you?
You would trust the government to do the right thing, as all governments do, right?. So what happens if you step out of line, do you think they could just turn off your chip and prevent you from accessing
you money, from accessing information, from proving who you are?
The chips could also be receivers so if you pass through a check point, they will know where you are and could dispatch officers to detain you.
Now, of course if you are a law obiding citizen, this will not be a problem, but what if the law becomes draconian? There is a saying that absolute power corupts, absolutely.
what if they begin to force you to work 60, 70 even 80 hours a week?
what if you dont agree with something the government is doing? what could you do?
I know what the government could do to you, and everyone who disagrees with them. Simply hit a button and DELETE.
You are no longer part of society. Still want a chip implanted in you?

Post by **breaksRbest** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:24 pm

PARANOIAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

deviant · Post by **deviant** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:27 pm

zeitgeist imo

deviant · Post by **deviant** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:30 pm

after a bit of thought I have put the situation (re the dude on the footpath) down to "an unfortunate situation" which doesn't repesent the norm, nor the purpose of street view. What is perplexing me is that the driver of the camera car didn't see him and think "maybe I'll come back down this street later"

also, shame on The Age for doing a story on this poor bloke and then posting the very picture themselves on the article even though it has been removed from google

ADD_Boy · Post by **ADD_Boy** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:33 pm

there was an episode of CSI, or one of those, where a guy drugged his MRs and insterted one in her neck.. To catch her cheating..

It was actually the dad from Full House playing the character .. lol

deviant · Post by **deviant** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:36 pm

Bob Saget FTW!

almax · Post by **almax** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:42 pm

breaksRbest wrote:PARANOIAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

pfft whatever dude, its myopic and uneducated attitudes like that which will fuck us all when a government tries to have every baby in Australia inserted with such a chip. Its people like you who wont see the bigger picture and vote "yes, i want to be your pet" along with all the other morons in this country and trust me there is plenty of them. People need to wake up, YOU need to wake up seriously, and tell as many people you can about this.

Feigan · Post by **Feigan** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:46 pm

almax wrote:
Feigan wrote: it's used for pets already I think isn't it for ID - councils offer this don't they?

some nightclub was getting chips inserted into people's arms for guestlist or something I think I remember reading? I'll try and find the article.
Oh ok so you would like to be the governments "pet" would you?
You would trust the government to do the right thing, as all governments do, right?. So what happens if you step out of line, do you think they could just turn off your chip and prevent you from accessing
you money, from accessing information, from proving who you are?
The chips could also be receivers so if you pass through a check point, they will know where you are and could dispatch officers to detain you.
Now, of course if you are a law obiding citizen, this will not be a problem, but what if the law becomes draconian? There is a saying that absolute power corupts, absolutely.
what if they begin to force you to work 60, 70 even 80 hours a week?
what if you dont agree with something the government is doing? what could you do?
I know what the government could do to you, and everyone who disagrees with them. Simply hit a button and DELETE.
You are no longer part of society. Still want a chip implanted in you?

These are all very extreme examples and do include a very large "What If" factor.

I'm not saying that this couldn't happen, because it could, I am more so saying it is unlikely this would happen and that this technology would be used against us.

If the govt didn't want me around, I don't think the fact that I had a chip in my arm would provide too much of a barrier for them to get rid of me, unless I was on side with Al Qaida and I could go and hang with Osama.

Let's look at say when credit/bank cards where introduced. Was there an uproar throughout society that the govt would be able to control, maim, kill or delete lives based on the fact that they govt could control credit/finances?

similar scenario - it's an advancement in technology sure there will always be positives and negatives, there is with everything that related to development - I think that you're painting the black picture and I'm painting the one with the rainbows on it - which is cool. It's always good to check both sides of the coin.

And don't make any rainbow/sydney jokes - I know you're thinking that already because secretly I had a chip inserted in your brain when you where asleep last time i was in melbourne and I can read your thoughts.

Post by **breaksRbest** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:51 pm

almax wrote:
breaksRbest wrote:PARANOIAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
pfft whatever dude, its myopic and uneducated attitudes like that which will fuck us all when a government tries to have every baby in Australia inserted with such a chip. Its people like you who wont see the bigger picture and vote "yes, i want to be your pet" along with all the other morons in this country and trust me there is plenty of them. People need to wake up, YOU need to wake up seriously, and tell as many people you can about this.

ZOMG the Gubernment is in my chipz, stealing my I.Deeez

and I don't appreciate being called a Moron thnxkbye

almax · Post by **almax** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 4:04 pm

credit cards are totally different, a credit card is not implanted under your fucking skin FFS and not everyone has them, think about it, if everyone has chips, there is no need for cash, no need for cash makes your reliance on said chip all the more important, without the chip, you do not belong in society, there will be places where you wont be able to get into without a chip like train stations, hospitals etc al. You will not be able to work, not even washing dishes at the local greek restaurant for cash in hand because there will be no black market. Even little things like lending someone money to get them out of a bind, will all be tracable, all be on the system, there will be no where to hide and they will have absolute power over everyone.
And you wouldnt have to be doing anything majour like Al Quaida, you will still be important to the government as a worker, just like a worker bee in a hive, they will still want you to work, but whats stopping them from increasing hours and not increasing pay? there is any number of scenarios on how, once implemented, this chip economy could be corrupted.
I mean sure, the government should do the right thing, but it wouldnt be the first time the government fucked over a section of society would it?
Its basic slavery and its fucking repulsive IMO and it should be your opinion also...really

BRB i didnt call you a Moron, i think your comment was moronic though, my view is grounded and a pretty serious one and i feel your sacasm is this instance is misplaced, yours too deviant

ooer CONTROVERSIAL!

almax · Post by **almax** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 4:16 pm

sorry guys im obviously pretty passionate about this, its just something that deeply concerns me.
Anyone wanna start a riot?

no seriously

Feigan wrote: I'm not saying that this couldn't happen, because it could, I am more so saying it is unlikely this would happen and that this technology would be used against us.

I agree that its unlikely in the current political climate, but fuck, peak oil is about to come and go, the world is about to possibly turn to shit, whos to say what life in Australia or the world for that matter will be like in 30, 20 maybe even 10 years time. Once this technology is implemented, it wont be stopped.

deviant · Post by **deviant** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 4:22 pm

I disagree, I think you are being way too over the top.... where's the evedience to suggest this is happening or going to happen?

as IF there would be no black market... people are NOT bees, which is the main point. You cannot be made to be a bee. The amount of people that would not comply and therefore get shut out etc would be massive, therefore an underground culture/economy would emerge. tbh I don't see why you are such a zealot for this cause. I totally agree that governments are fucked and the power coruption etc etc... but microchip tracking on everone.. I'm VERY sceptical, and not conviced.

not bees

almax · Post by **almax** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 4:24 pm

bzzz

Where is YOUR proof it wouldnt happen, you even just admitted that governments are fucked up.
Im not saying it WILL happen, im just saying it could happen, and if it does would be totally fucked all just so we dont lose our wallets?
The risk doesnt weigh up to the perceived benefits.
Tell me what astounding benefits a microchip will bring our society?

a1studmuffin · Post by **a1studmuffin** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 5:17 pm

almax · Post by **almax** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 5:33 pm

lol

cmon Dan im waiting for your answer...
and i think i misread your post, did you want proof on whether governments were going to microchip us?
here is a couple of articles and there is plenty more (i havent actually read them, just browsed it)
USA
http://infowars.net/articles/april2006/ ... _chips.htm
UK
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ecade.html
And we all know how much Australia follows suit with either USA or UK, Howard wanted to implement a smart card
"The Age in Australia reported that within ten years the chip will be as common as cell phones are today."

deviant · Post by **deviant** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 5:43 pm

almax wrote:bzzz

Where is YOUR proof it wouldnt happen, you even just admitted that governments are fucked up.
Im not saying it WILL happen, im just saying it could happen, and if it does would be totally fucked all just so we dont lose our wallets?
The risk doesnt weigh up to the perceived benefits.
Tell me what astounding benefits a microchip will bring our society?

jeezus, I never said that they were a good idea... in fact I'm pretty against it tbh. I don't believe you have anything to fear though... I have faith in people's ability to resist such a proposal.

ADD_Boy · Post by **ADD_Boy** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 5:47 pm

deviant wrote:Bob Saget FTW!

LOL!! that's the fucker!!

Post by **lynt** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 5:47 pm

almax · Post by **almax** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 5:53 pm

deviant wrote:
almax wrote:bzzz

Where is YOUR proof it wouldnt happen, you even just admitted that governments are fucked up.
Im not saying it WILL happen, im just saying it could happen, and if it does would be totally fucked all just so we dont lose our wallets?
The risk doesnt weigh up to the perceived benefits.
Tell me what astounding benefits a microchip will bring our society?
jeezus, I never said that they were a good idea... in fact I'm pretty against it tbh. I don't believe you have anything to fear though... I have faith in people's ability to resist such a proposal.

Well thats awesome, and thats all i wanted to hear, that you were against it, but faith in people to resist it....? im not convince AT ALL, thats why i jumped up at Feigan and Hatsudai who said "it would be quite handy" (or something similar) all i was trying to do was open their eyes so that IF there is a referendum or a politician who has the chips in their policy or anything pertaining to something down a similar path to move strongly against it. And all i got from you and glenn was sarcasm

but i like street view

almax · Post by **almax** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 5:55 pm

lol @ lynt

Post by **breaksRbest** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 6:11 pm

I'm not against it and i'm not being sarcastic when I say you're being extremely paranoid

Direkt · Post by **Direkt** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 6:22 pm

Al: Zeitgeist much mate?

In supporting Al's comments, there are a group of people out there who are convinced that this is one of the roads we may be heading down through the "powers that be" (illuminati and so forth). And it's far from a completely unbelievable idea IMO.

Who knows... but it's a scary prospect all the same.

almax · Post by **almax** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 6:43 pm

Direktor wrote:Al: Zeitgeist much mate?

FTW

it certainly opened my eyes to a bunch of things but to think that this is the basis of all my thought processes is not correct, this is why i value this movie. While admittedly some of its points were incorrect and misdirected, it was a catalyst for me and many others i know in a search for answers and i have that movie to thank. Kinda like when i first heard Goldies Timeless, it opened up drum and bass for me to explore, and similarily not every track on Timeless is a masterpiece, but overall the album is aces.

Post by **breaksRbest** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 6:49 pm

just for starters, the introduction of a micro-chip into ones body would involve at the least some kind of minor surgery. If you honestly think that ANY Government would make it compulsory that you to have it installed then I'm afraid I'm not the one who is deluded

almax · Post by **almax** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 6:59 pm

they are the size of a grain of rice Glenn, just a needle injection is all thats required, perhaps you should do some reading on it, and no one said you were delusional.

"Despite countless policy documents calling for just this and hundreds of mainstream news reports covering the issue, many would dismiss this as utter science fiction or a "conspiracy theory" and refuse to look into the facts.
If we are such crackpots for warning that this agenda is upon us why is it that moves are now underway in Wisconsin for legislation to ban mandatory chipping of people by governments and companies?"
Why would a state move to ban mandatory chipping if the national government were not looking at its implementation? where there's smoke theres fire.
USA
http://infowars.net/articles/april2006/ ... _chips.htm
UK
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ecade.html

mrj · Post by **mrj** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 7:03 pm

I did. I reckon he's off his tits.

ghetto kitty · Post by **ghetto kitty** » Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:57 pm

deviant wrote:
almax wrote:bzzz

Where is YOUR proof it wouldnt happen, you even just admitted that governments are fucked up.
Im not saying it WILL happen, im just saying it could happen, and if it does would be totally fucked all just so we dont lose our wallets?
The risk doesnt weigh up to the perceived benefits.
Tell me what astounding benefits a microchip will bring our society?
jeezus, I never said that they were a good idea... in fact I'm pretty against it tbh. I don't believe you have anything to fear though... I have faith in people's ability to resist such a proposal.

ive missed most of the furore it seems, but im COMPLETELY with al on this one. here comes the kitty rant....

saying you have 'faith in peoples ability to resist this proposal' is pretty rose coloured glasses dan...
one would have thought that about the 2am lockouts wouldnt one?
and a myriad of other 'clear cut' legislations that have been passed by relying on the public's view that the govt basically has our interests at heart.

wake up guys, the govt. is all about two things
PROFIT & POWER.

paranoid you say? no fucking way, its already happening! so much of what was in zetgeist is pretty hard to pass off as mere anti propaganda propaganda, even if it is presented in a black and white way.

street view scares the shit out of me more than anything.
the stock market seems to be gambling more than ever right now.
im still pretty sure S11 wasnt Al qeida (sp?) as i was when i first heard about the attacks.
myki the public transport system, is close to this too.

and the fact that others here think it would be 'great, handy' to have their entire identity, medical records, travel history and credit rating scan-able at the door of every club you enter or every tram you board, is to me, horrifying.

2012 isnt just some zealot's idea of jeeubs returning. nostradamus said its the end of the world 'as we know it' and I beleive those who have their head in the sand will be left behind. call us conspiricists if you want, but id rather be aware of the depth of the blackness that's plausible than relying on the powers that be to let me live my life in FREEDOM.

whew.

Blaxter · Post by **Blaxter** » Tue Aug 12, 2008 4:01 pm

Nice rant Kittl.

Al for what its worth I'm with you.

<cue another put down from bRb>

Post by **breaksRbest** » Tue Aug 12, 2008 4:11 pm

you're not worth my time

Blaxter · Post by **Blaxter** » Tue Aug 12, 2008 4:15 pm

BINGO

deviant · Post by **deviant** » Tue Aug 12, 2008 4:53 pm

ghetto kitty wrote:saying you have 'faith in peoples ability to resist this proposal' is pretty rose coloured glasses dan...
one would have thought that about the 2am lockouts wouldnt one?

people did resist the 2am lockout. Rose coloured glasses??? please, your reaction is proof that people will reject it.. you think you are the only one with that view? You carry on sometimes like a lone-soldier when in fact many people feel the same way.

ghetto kitty wrote:wake up guys, the govt. is all about two things
PROFIT & POWER.

I think you're being a little over-dramatic here... I mean, of course there's a degree of profit that is nessecary for a countries survival economically. To say that's it's all evil and deceptive is rubbish imo. Have you worked within a gov't organisation? Do you know how they opperate? There is a high degree of accountability and reporting (in australia at least). 2am lockout was sprung on us under the guise of a "trial" which failed and was ridiculed all the way from right to left. The lockout was not designed to be against you or the night-club industry, it was designed to stop violence... Sure it was a lazy solution, put together by people who don't know anything about the scene/industry, but it was not sinister or war-like.

ghetto kitty wrote:street view scares the shit out of me more than anything..

do you use google search? gmail? youtube?

you realise that every search you perform, every mail you recieve and send, every youtube clip you watch is kept on their computers FOREVER. Your mail is even scanned for key words to display relevant advertisements to you.

This has been the case for google since they began. I think that's far more scary than a few (million) pictures of streets.

ghetto kitty · Post by **ghetto kitty** » Tue Aug 12, 2008 5:11 pm

deviant wrote: people did resist the 2am lockout. Rose coloured glasses??? please, your reaction is proof that people will reject it.. you think you are the only one with that view? You carry on sometimes like a lone-soldier when in fact many people feel the same way.

lets see, yes, there is a percentage of the population who do not agree with these things, but are they often vocal? no. are they often personally affected? no.
even on itm there is loads of people who think its a GOOD IDEA dude.
when it comes to conspiricies, the G20 summit, majick and MANY other things i feel strongly about, i am often a 'lone soldier' who will rant for hours to the skeptics among the wider group of my peers.

deviant wrote: I think you're being a little over-dramatic here... I mean, of course there's a degree of profit that is nessecary for a countries survival economically. To say that's it's all evil and deceptive is rubbish imo. Have you worked within a gov't organisation? Do you know how they opperate? There is a high degree of accountability and reporting (in australia at least).

no, I havent, and I may one day.
do you honestly think that your privy to information about even a small fraction of what goes on behind the doors of the city council? i dont know, im just saying, the 'reporting' and the 'accountability' is more often than not tailored to a certain agenda. and when i say power and profit, im talking WAY outside the bounds of 2am lockout. im talking globally.
if you cant see that oil prices, war, inflation, taxes, and the govt's urge to have CONTROL over everything we do isnt linked, then maybe you should get out of govt.

deviant wrote: do you use google search? gmail? youtube?

you realise that every search you perform, every mail you recieve and send, every youtube clip you watch is kept on their computers FOREVER. Your mail is even scanned for key words to display relevant advertisements to you.

This has been the case for google since they began. I think that's far more scary than a few (million) pictures of streets.

yes I do.
I beleive there is lines in the sand. They are different for everyone, and they often get crossed out and replaced. sometimes on the agreeance of the whole, other times purely to drive some other motive. street view to me is a whole other level of technology being taken so far that it leaves no room for humanity to be well, human. to have secrets, to live without the eyes of the world watching.

honestly, The internet has alwasy scared me, I have often thought its all gonna fall to shit.
I do actually believe that someone somewhere has the technology to END all electronic communications at once globally, but im not going into that here for fear of being touted as paranoid beyond reckoning.