Asian man stabbed outside Hungry Jacks.

youthful_implants · Post by **youthful_implants** » Tue Jan 05, 2010 12:20 pm

Racist attack or just plain unlucky?

They didn't steal anything from him so the motivation is uncertain.

He's been attacked before, maybe people just didn't like his face.

Which brings me back to the racist question. I'd be interested to know if anyone on here has experienced racism? Either directly been a victim or witness of.

Hardy · Post by **Hardy** » Tue Jan 05, 2010 12:34 pm

Short answer is he's unlucky. Long answer is... coming later.

almax · Post by **almax** » Tue Jan 05, 2010 12:35 pm

DBoy · Post by **DBoy** » Tue Jan 05, 2010 12:44 pm

With out asking mr. stabby - the rest is speculation.

youthful_implants · Post by **youthful_implants** » Tue Jan 05, 2010 12:50 pm

ok well to put my experience in Melbourne into some context I'll give this stereotype an example.

when I first got here, I caught a lot of taxis around Melbourne as I didn't know the city too well.

nearly every single one of my taxi drivers was asian, barely spoke english and was incapable of taking me where I wanted to go without a farce of some kind or other and enormous frustration on my part.

it would be easy to assume from this experience that all taxi drivers are a: asian and b: rubbish which I can imagine sparks a lot of anger in passengers the same vein I experienced.

however after a year now of being here, and a more varied and comprehensive experience of taxi use its safe to say that its not just the asians which are bad taxi drivers which leaves one incontrovertible conclusion: that taxi drivers are usually immigrants with bad language and even less driving skills.

Why is this? Is it just another form of cheap labour? It should be regulated because they're at risk if they continue to take passengers without a clue what they're doing. No wonder so many of them have the in-car protection wall built round them. Surely better training would be cheaper and more beneficial long-term than fitting those things in all the cabs?

The media has been talking about how India is very concerned about the safety of their people in this country. This does not surprise me. Perhaps if both Governments took bigger steps to ensure people were integrating properly and actually tried to mentor them meaningfully in appropriate employment instead of promising them jobs which they're not equipped to do, people would settle here more smoothly.

DBoy · Post by **DBoy** » Tue Jan 05, 2010 1:03 pm

pre-note - Youthful refers to Asains to include Indians - something most Australians do not (i think?)

RE: Taxi Drivers - training is actually quite rigerous. However you are right, it is cheap labour. Most work 10 - 14 hour shifts and make about $7-$8 hour for the first year. By the time they have worked a year they might be able to earn $10 through knowing the system, better knowledge of the roads etc.
Everyone wants a better taxi system, but no one wants to propose how this will happen.
- Attract better drivers - which would mean having to increase fares. Would you pay more for a better taxi driver?
- Ensure drivers last longer as the average taxi driver only does so for 1.5 years, not long enough to be a experienced driver. How? Shorter shifts - well if you only earn $8 hour you cant do shorter shifts, so agian, increase fares....
--- We do a bit of work with Taxi drivers at my work, especially newer arrivals, we go over this arguement all the time. I am yet to hear a proposal that actually provides any solution.

RE: Saftey of Indians in Australia.
Comparitevly this is a joke. I can't remember the stats but i think it is something like 250 tourists who get killed in India each year. Not counting ex-pats and tourists who get seriously injured.

RE: Social Inlcussion.
Yep - this should be the catch phrase for the next 5 years. I blame the media and the sensationalist attitude they have towards reporting on EVERYTHING, but especially issues regarding race and difference. I just can not understand why everything has such a negative shade of reporting over it - why can't we promote social inclussion and acceptance, why must we be so backward in the way we consider 'the other' - it is like the friggin dark ages. Wake up Australia!

mrj · Post by **mrj** » Tue Jan 05, 2010 1:08 pm

I would personally like to see the stats of % of population murdered per ethnic group. How it would come out I don't know.

On the face of it to me it just looked like the guy didn't think things through. He walked through an isolated park at night where it was pitch black in a rough area. I sure as shit wouldn't do the same, and know enough not to.

youthful_implants · Post by **youthful_implants** » Tue Jan 05, 2010 1:18 pm

DBoy wrote:pre-note - Youthful refers to Asains to include Indians - something most Australians do not (i think?)

RE: Taxi Drivers - training is actually quite rigerous. However you are right, it is cheap labour. Most work 10 - 14 hour shifts and make about $7-$8 hour for the first year. By the time they have worked a year they might be able to earn $10 through knowing the system, better knowledge of the roads etc.
Everyone wants a better taxi system, but no one wants to propose how this will happen.
- Attract better drivers - which would mean having to increase fares. Would you pay more for a better taxi driver?
- Ensure drivers last longer as the average taxi driver only does so for 1.5 years, not long enough to be a experienced driver. How? Shorter shifts - well if you only earn $8 hour you cant do shorter shifts, so agian, increase fares....
--- We do a bit of work with Taxi drivers at my work, especially newer arrivals, we go over this arguement all the time. I am yet to hear a proposal that actually provides any solution.

RE: Saftey of Indians in Australia.
Comparitevly this is a joke. I can't remember the stats but i think it is something like 250 tourists who get killed in India each year. Not counting ex-pats and tourists who get seriously injured.

RE: Social Inlcussion.
Yep - this should be the catch phrase for the next 5 years. I blame the media and the sensationalist attitude they have towards reporting on EVERYTHING, but especially issues regarding race and difference. I just can not understand why everything has such a negative shade of reporting over it - why can't we promote social inclussion and acceptance, why must we be so backward in the way we consider 'the other' - it is like the friggin dark ages. Wake up Australia!

really good post mate. I completely agree about how the media 'shades' racial journalism negatively. I think its appalling, especially on the bigger TV networks.

yeah in the UK it carries a broader meaning

wiki wrote: United Kingdom
Main article: British Asian

In the United Kingdom, the term "Asian", though it can refer to the continent of Asia as a whole,[7] is more commonly associated with people of South Asian origin, particularly Indians, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis and Sri Lankans.[10] The UK usage of the term "Asian" is reflected in the "ethnic group" section of UK census forms, which treat "Asian" and "Chinese" as separate (see British Asian).[6] Most respondents to the UK 2001 Census of non-Chinese East Asian and Southeast Asian descent chose to write-in their ethnicity in the "Other Ethnic Group" category rather than the "Other Asian" category, reflecting the association of the word Asian in the UK with South Asian.[16] Despite there being a strong presence of East Asians in the United Kingdom there are considerably more South Asians, for example the 2001 Census recorded 1.05 million people of Indian origin and 247,000 of Chinese origin in the UK.[17]

The United Kingdom, Anglophone Africa and Anglophone Caribbean are places in the Western world where the word "Asian" is used primarily to identify people from the Indian subcontinent. Due to the term's contested definition in British English, the use of the term "South Asian" is used for clarity in discussions in the United Kingdom on colonialism, discrimination, and migration[3] or when the content of its parameters may become mistakenly conflated with those of East Asian descent.[10]

I think social inclusion is an issue that the UK has battled with for a really long time. There are so many factors which make it harder and often time is the only thing which makes it easier. That said, there is such a sense of racial unity in many of the larger UK cities it is really something to be proud of.

I totally agree on all your points, but re the taxi drivers I just wonder if a greater sense of professionalism from within that industry should be encouraged or harboured, or at the very least some kind of performance based pay incentives. Tipping is clearly not enough.

DBoy · Post by **DBoy** » Tue Jan 05, 2010 1:21 pm

There are actually groups of taxi drivers (quite a few) who have an independant switch as well as their perant company - you can ring the alternative switch and book them knowing you are going to get a better taxi driver. There is an aditional booking fee but I often use it if I am going to airport and somewhere I need to be on time and for sure...

shepherd · Post by **shepherd** » Tue Jan 05, 2010 1:23 pm

i think the reason many taxi drivers people have experienced are individuals with limited english skills and a lack of knowledge around directions/roads etc comes down to the low pay offered (due to cabs being a low margin, volume business) combined with extremely high levels of employment in Australia (relative to many other countries) which creates a lack of human supply. (to put it bluntly). Hence - the people attracted to driving a cab are those with limited skills who need money relatively quickly to continue surviving. Due to a lack of interest, the cab companies are limited in how selective they can be.

the system is self defeating really ... the low hourly wage forces 12 hour shifts ... 12 hour shifts cause cranky/irritable/tired drivers.

the only solution is to charge more for cab fares really. The average cab makes around $50-70 an hour in actual revenue on average. So that works at around 1200 a day or around $8400 a week. 52 weeks = $436k or thereabouts.

From this they have to cover fuel, maintenance, insurances, dispatch system, cabcharge/eftpos, premiums, payroll/admin ... which leaves them with whatever profit ... which they pay income taxes on.

Solution to attract 'better' drivers would be to pay more ... ie $20-$25 per hour (which, to be fair, only works out at 40odd thousand PA for a driver which is still a reasonably low wage considering many have families to support) ... but for this to happen fares would have to increase significantly. Would anyone be happy to pay $40 to go from the city to prahran one way after midnight?

I catch cabs a lot for work and generally the experience is positive. i use a regular guy for airport trips and he is fantastic ... it's rare i get a bad cab driver and generally they're more rude than incompetent (which is understandable I reckon after pulling a 12 hr shift)

re racism - no idea. doesn't really matter as perception is reality and the perception is there's a problem.

youthful_implants · Post by **youthful_implants** » Tue Jan 05, 2010 1:30 pm

shepherd wrote:i think the reason many taxi drivers people have experienced are individuals with limited english skills and a lack of knowledge around directions/roads etc comes down to the low pay offered (due to cabs being a low margin, volume business) combined with extremely high levels of employment in Australia (relative to many other countries) which creates a lack of human supply. (to put it bluntly). Hence - the people attracted to driving a cab are those with limited skills who need money relatively quickly to continue surviving. Due to a lack of interest, the cab companies are limited in how selective they can be.

the system is self defeating really ... the low hourly wage forces 12 hour shifts ... 12 hour shifts cause cranky/irritable/tired drivers.

the only solution is to charge more for cab fares really. The average cab makes around $50-70 an hour in actual revenue on average. So that works at around 1200 a day or around $8400 a week. 52 weeks = $436k or thereabouts.

From this they have to cover fuel, maintenance, insurances, dispatch system, cabcharge/eftpos, premiums, payroll/admin ... which leaves them with whatever profit ... which they pay income taxes on.

Solution to attract 'better' drivers would be to pay more ... ie $20-$25 per hour (which, to be fair, only works out at 40odd thousand PA for a driver which is still a reasonably low wage considering many have families to support) ... but for this to happen fares would have to increase significantly. Would anyone be happy to pay $40 to go from the city to prahran one way after midnight?

I catch cabs a lot for work and generally the experience is positive. i use a regular guy for airport trips and he is fantastic ... it's rare i get a bad cab driver and generally they're more rude than incompetent (which is understandable I reckon after pulling a 12 hr shift)

re racism - no idea. doesn't really matter as perception is reality and the perception is there's a problem.

thats really interesting Ben totally agree about it being self-defeating.

re. racism its perception that is the problem IMO.

A lot of people I have met do not perceive the problem or any racism claiming they're not personally, and therefore believing it doesn't exist.

The problem lies in a general lack of empathy and communication between the various ethnic groups to encourage openness, tolerance and understanding. Racism is fed by ignorance I guess.

mecka · Post by **mecka** » Tue Jan 05, 2010 8:15 pm

Media sensationalism at its very fucking finest.

Racially motivated attacks are by no means justifiable but the media on both continents is really blowing the whole issue out of proportion imo.

FRAKSHA... · Post by **FRAKSHA...** » Wed Jan 06, 2010 1:53 pm

same with all this rubbish about Melbourne being really violent and scary to go out to in the evening! Never been in a safer feeling city in the world to be honest. Very very very rarely see any trouble (nothing that you wouldnt see in any major city on a weekend). Media just overblow it so much then u read these letters in the paper from Mr Buttfuck in some out there suburb saying things like 'its time the major did something about this bla blah blah, i dont feel safe walking the streets blah blah blah' when they've prob not even ventured to the city in ten years! Sticking photos of people fighting in the street in the paper, jesus christ!!! this is standard happenings and will always continue to happen, its just the way it is.

i wasnt around 10-15 years back but from what i can gather places like C-wood, Richmond etc were a hell of lot worse then no?

a1studmuffin · Post by **a1studmuffin** » Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:22 pm

I could be wrong, but I was under the impression a lot of taxi drivers in Melbourne illegally shared their taxi license/taxi between a few people to get more money out of it... hence the dodgy drivers that don't know where to go, as they're operating illegally... always worth checking the photo of the registered driver against the dude in the car...

almax · Post by **almax** » Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:26 pm

a1studmuffin wrote:always worth checking the photo of the registered driver against the dude in the car...

They need a profile photo of the driver, how often do you see them front on?

mrj · Post by **mrj** » Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:46 pm

Well, what I'm sick of is Lebbo's stealing jobs from our fat kids whilst the neighbour from hell became a millionaire over night and so could you if it wasnt for the millions of bacteria living in the panic attacks of women who have cured their celluite without surgery.

same o · Post by **same o** » Wed Jan 06, 2010 3:25 pm

"thars an asian"

:donk:

mixtress · Post by **mixtress** » Wed Jan 06, 2010 3:51 pm

whatever you're on mrj, I want some of that

deviant · Post by **deviant** » Fri Jan 08, 2010 11:58 am

Let's just say the attack was racially motivated... so what? some people are racist, I don't think that it's a common theme accross our community really.. maybe I'm wrong. Why should we and the administration of this country be held to account for the actions of some bogan at the footscray train station?

youthful_implants · Post by **youthful_implants** » Fri Jan 08, 2010 12:14 pm

deviant wrote:Let's just say the attack was racially motivated... so what? some people are racist, I don't think that it's a common theme accross our community really.. maybe I'm wrong. Why should we and the administration of this country be held to account for the actions of some bogan at the footscray train station?

Who is actually representing the Indian people in this country? Its the same Government that represents you.

Who else is going to make a big deal out of it if the media don't?

The Herald Sun makes a point of backing every single pointless, negative notion this country has the misfortune to bear, they're practically a user-generated media machine. I would rather real issues like racism were discussed or documented than which footballer has got drunk and pissed himself again.

So I think its fair that if communities feel disenfranchised or victimised that they call on the Government or media or local police for support.

A lot of people dont like it, but who cares? The same people who dont like tax payers money being used to educate and house asylum seekers mainly.

Like I was saying before, I think racism is really all about perception and the media whether you like it or not, is making people talk about racism again and thats a good thing.

Its like the KFC ad thats just been pulled. I couldn't believe that ad when I saw it on TV!!! That is the result of unbelievably thoughtless and lazy artistic direction and seems to mirror the complacency that I think is rife over here. Even the Herbal Essences ad with the Rastafarian is pretty offensive IMO.

On the subject of racial stereotypes I get the impression, and correct me if I'm wrong, that there is a middle Australia a bit like middle America which consists of economically solvent, comfortable but not particularly well educated people who dont really give two shits about issues that dont immediately concern their lives. I see it in the media, and I see it on the sidewalk every day.

Am I wrong? Is that an establishment worth protecting? Why is that more valuable than the Indian, Bangladeshi, or whatever else communities that also live in this country?

mrj · Post by **mrj** » Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:07 pm

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaat? Buuuuuuullllshiiiiiiiit.

That KFC ad stuff is just bullshit. I'm sorry it is. The stereotype of african americans as fried chicken addicts is just not prevalent here in australia, most people aren't aware of it. I wasn't aware it was a stereotype until I saw it being sent up on Dave Chapelle a couple of years back. If you made a joke about fried chicken and black people in australia most people wouldn't get it. Furthermore teh ad depicted West Indians, not african amercians.

The fact that it was misinterepreted in the US (a market it was never meant for or even aired in) is just people not understanding the context and is competley irrelevant and stupid. They look at that ad and think its a dig at black people. In Australia it means nothing. Although it must be said its still a shit ad, doesn't even make me hungry.

Post by **fooishbar** » Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:07 pm

WHAT AM I GOING TO DOO WITH A TEA COS-Y

mrj · Post by **mrj** » Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:11 pm

Furthermore the Herbal essences ad? WTF is wrong with that? Who is it offensive to? Herbs? Shampoo executives?

What has that ad depicted that is offensive? A rastafarian with dreadlocks? Last time I checked rastafarians DO have dreadlocks. Its part of their religion.

youthful_implants · Post by **youthful_implants** » Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:13 pm

mrj wrote:Whaaaaaaaaaaaaat? Buuuuuuullllshiiiiiiiit.

That KFC ad stuff is just bullshit. I'm sorry it is. The stereotype of african americans as fried chicken addicts is just not prevalent here in australia, most people aren't aware of it. I wasn't aware it was a stereotype until I saw it being sent up on Dave Chapelle a couple of years back. If you made a joke about fried chicken and black people in australia most people wouldn't get it. Furthermore teh ad depicted West Indians, not african amercians.

The fact that it was misinterepreted in the US (a market it was never meant for or even aired in) is just people not understanding the context and competley irrelevant and stupid. They look at that ad and think its a dig at black people. In Australia it means nothing. Although it must be said its still a shit ad, doesn't even make me hungry.

No but hang on, how many ads do you see with black people being portrayed as upstanding members of Australian community in proud, responsible, working families? None.

These are the values that Australia respects, so they use typical white Australians to depict them. When the advertising market is dominated by picture perfect images and characters based on the Australian 'ideal' its not really cool that the only ads depicting black people are mocking them or portraying them in a derogatory way.

Advertisers have a responsibility to inform and educate as much as the TV companies do. People see those ads and they think without any real experience, that all black people like fried chicken, or are vain, or silly, or whatever.

Not good.

shepherd · Post by **shepherd** » Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:16 pm

i think the KFC ad is an interesting one.

For a US citizen the incorrect nature would be obvious. For an Australian not so much.

Now - given the whole theme of the summer creative concept is about giving rowdy cricket fans regardless of race or stature KFC to generate a desired result (tickets, quiet, TV, getting onto the field) it can safely be assumed that there is no intent on anyone's behalf to be malicious.

Still - is that a fallback? Is naivety okay?

The KFC concept to me just feels odd. The guy (Mick or whatever his name is) is just a scam artist. Masquerades as a cop to get free tickets off a scalper, pretends to be a security guard, steals a dudes KFC when he's sleeping ... it's not offensive it just feels dumb but I guess I'm not in the target.

The US reaction to the West Indies ad hasn't been as vitriolic as many are making out - it was mainly covered on soapbox media like Huffpo and really annoying web only TV (that is generally hosted by naive left wing college john stewart wannabes)

I am with YI that the media attention around the treatment of Indians is probably not a bad thing. There is obvious, public racism towards Indians in this country and it happens all the time. Now, it might not be as bad or as targeted in a violent way as the paper is asserting, but it still exists and it exists in an environment of tolerated comfort.

what India is doing, relatively smartly (although it's falling down in execution) is trying to leverage its sizeable economic contribution to Australia to protect its citizens - which is kind of what a government is there to do. Maybe the govt here don't like it as it's making them face a problem that's difficult to solve - an overarching violence problem?

I don't know but I like the discussion.

shepherd · Post by **shepherd** » Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:24 pm

mrj wrote:Furthermore the Herbal essences ad? WTF is wrong with that? Who is it offensive to? Herbs? Shampoo executives?

What has that ad depicted that is offensive? A rastafarian with dreadlocks? Last time I checked rastafarians DO have dreadlocks. Its part of their religion.

could be looking into this too much, but this ad could have easily had a white dude with dreadlocks get dudded by the conditioning power of Herbal Essences ... ie, be the dude at the butt of the joke.

I don't think people watch that ad and go - jeez, rastas are such dumbarses ... but i think YI is right that generally Australian ads when depicting the notion of 'aspiration' go with anglo representation despite AU being multicultural.

Hardy · Post by **Hardy** » Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:30 pm

If these turds want to split hairs, considering that eating fried chicken is and African American stereotype, I would call them racist for considering West Indians to be the same. They all look the same to you?

sort of.

Hardy · Post by **Hardy** » Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:32 pm

youthful_implants wrote:
mrj wrote:Whaaaaaaaaaaaaat? Buuuuuuullllshiiiiiiiit.

That KFC ad stuff is just bullshit. I'm sorry it is. The stereotype of african americans as fried chicken addicts is just not prevalent here in australia, most people aren't aware of it. I wasn't aware it was a stereotype until I saw it being sent up on Dave Chapelle a couple of years back. If you made a joke about fried chicken and black people in australia most people wouldn't get it. Furthermore teh ad depicted West Indians, not african amercians.

The fact that it was misinterepreted in the US (a market it was never meant for or even aired in) is just people not understanding the context and competley irrelevant and stupid. They look at that ad and think its a dig at black people. In Australia it means nothing. Although it must be said its still a shit ad, doesn't even make me hungry.
No but hang on, how many ads do you see with black people being portrayed as upstanding members of Australian community in proud, responsible, working families? None.

These are the values that Australia respects, so they use typical white Australians to depict them. When the advertising market is dominated by picture perfect images and characters based on the Australian 'ideal' its not really cool that the only ads depicting black people are mocking them or portraying them in a derogatory way.

Advertisers have a responsibility to inform and educate as much as the TV companies do. People see those ads and they think without any real experience, that all black people like fried chicken, or are vain, or silly, or whatever.

Not good.

Because they're marketing to white people, and there aren't many black people in Australia.. It's not that hard to work out.

youthful_implants · Post by **youthful_implants** » Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:36 pm

shepherd wrote:
mrj wrote:Furthermore the Herbal essences ad? WTF is wrong with that? Who is it offensive to? Herbs? Shampoo executives?

What has that ad depicted that is offensive? A rastafarian with dreadlocks? Last time I checked rastafarians DO have dreadlocks. Its part of their religion.
could be looking into this too much, but this ad could have easily had a white dude with dreadlocks get dudded by the conditioning power of Herbal Essences ... ie, be the dude at the butt of the joke.

I don't think people watch that ad and go - jeez, rastas are such dumbarses ... but i think YI is right that generally Australian ads when depicting the notion of 'aspiration' go with anglo representation despite AU being multicultural.

and multiculturalism has more to it than feeling comfortable with ads which which make fun of ethnic minorities, its more than saying 'I've got no problem with other races as long as they dont live in my backyard, take my jobs or mind being the butt of my jokes.'

especially when some of those races through history have fought so hard to acheive even the most basic equality and civil/political rights.

they didn't do that so that european descended white people, who have lets face it, dominated the planet for the best part of two or three hundred years economically could sit back on their piles of gold and say 'you know what, this isn't my problem, never was, never will be and therefore I dont believe its anything to worry about.'

If that was your family, who fought for their skin, freedom, survival, equality or economic stability - I think you'd feel differently

mrj · Post by **mrj** » Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:36 pm

youthful_implants wrote:
mrj wrote:Whaaaaaaaaaaaaat? Buuuuuuullllshiiiiiiiit.

That KFC ad stuff is just bullshit. I'm sorry it is. The stereotype of african americans as fried chicken addicts is just not prevalent here in australia, most people aren't aware of it. I wasn't aware it was a stereotype until I saw it being sent up on Dave Chapelle a couple of years back. If you made a joke about fried chicken and black people in australia most people wouldn't get it. Furthermore teh ad depicted West Indians, not african amercians.

The fact that it was misinterepreted in the US (a market it was never meant for or even aired in) is just people not understanding the context and competley irrelevant and stupid. They look at that ad and think its a dig at black people. In Australia it means nothing. Although it must be said its still a shit ad, doesn't even make me hungry.
No but hang on, how many ads do you see with black people being portrayed as upstanding members of Australian community in proud, responsible, working families? None.

These are the values that Australia respects, so they use typical white Australians to depict them. When the advertising market is dominated by picture perfect images and characters based on the Australian 'ideal' its not really cool that the only ads depicting black people are mocking them or portraying them in a derogatory way.

Advertisers have a responsibility to inform and educate as much as the TV companies do. People see those ads and they think without any real experience, that all black people like fried chicken, or are vain, or silly, or whatever.

Not good.

The majority of ads depict white people in this country because the majority of advertisers are targeting white people in this country. Theres more white people, thats a fact, we shouldn't be suprised that advertisiers for the most part target this group. Some ads do target other groups, for example off the top of my head the IT Express training courses, they target the an asian (both Indian/Pakistani etc and China/Korea etc) because thats their market

And where is it written that advertisers have a duty to inform and educate? My understanding is that advertisers have a duty to do one thing only - sell their product. In doing so they of course have to conform to generally agreed standards of decency, but I think if we suddenly turn to the advertising industry to be beacons of moral leadership we are setting ourselves up for a great deal of dissapointment.

And in ads that target the general community, such as government ads that advertise workcover, citizenship, and various government services, in these I see plenty of use of people of all types of backgrounds.

I do believe that rasicsm is a problem in this country. For starters we have a completley disenfranchised indigenous population whose own traditional culture is highly incompatible with the european culture bought here by white settlers, and not a lot has been acheived, or I believed tried, in the past 200 years to get them to work together. If you look into Australia's history their is countless shameful acts, including genocide. Plus I do see real examples of rasicm in my daily life. But to raise examples of things like the KFC chicken ad is, to me, ridiculous, and trivialises the real issues of racism that we have in this country.

youthful_implants · Post by **youthful_implants** » Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:39 pm

mrj wrote:
youthful_implants wrote:
mrj wrote:Whaaaaaaaaaaaaat? Buuuuuuullllshiiiiiiiit.

That KFC ad stuff is just bullshit. I'm sorry it is. The stereotype of african americans as fried chicken addicts is just not prevalent here in australia, most people aren't aware of it. I wasn't aware it was a stereotype until I saw it being sent up on Dave Chapelle a couple of years back. If you made a joke about fried chicken and black people in australia most people wouldn't get it. Furthermore teh ad depicted West Indians, not african amercians.

The fact that it was misinterepreted in the US (a market it was never meant for or even aired in) is just people not understanding the context and competley irrelevant and stupid. They look at that ad and think its a dig at black people. In Australia it means nothing. Although it must be said its still a shit ad, doesn't even make me hungry.
No but hang on, how many ads do you see with black people being portrayed as upstanding members of Australian community in proud, responsible, working families? None.

These are the values that Australia respects, so they use typical white Australians to depict them. When the advertising market is dominated by picture perfect images and characters based on the Australian 'ideal' its not really cool that the only ads depicting black people are mocking them or portraying them in a derogatory way.

Advertisers have a responsibility to inform and educate as much as the TV companies do. People see those ads and they think without any real experience, that all black people like fried chicken, or are vain, or silly, or whatever.

Not good.
The majority of ads depict white people in this country because the majority of advertisers are targeting white people in this country. Theres more white people, thats a fact, we shouldn't be suprised that advertisiers for the most part target this group. Some ads do target other groups, for example off the top of my head the IT Express training courses, they target the an asian (both Indian/Pakistani etc and China/Korea etc) because thats their market

And where is it written that advertisers have a duty to inform and educate? My understanding is that advertisers have a duty to do one thing only - sell their product. In doing so they of course have to conform to generally agreed standards of decency, but I think if we suddenly turn to the advertising industry to be beacons of moral leadership we are setting ourselves up for a great deal of dissapointment.

And in ads that target the general community, such as government ads that advertise workcover, citizenship, and various government services, in these I see plenty of use of people of all types of backgrounds.

I do believe that rasicsm is a problem in this country. For starters we have a completley disenfranchised indigenous population whose own traditional culture is highly incompatible with the european culture bought here by white settlers, and not a lot has been acheived, or I believed tried, in the past 200 years to get them to work together. If you look into Australia's history their is countless shameful acts, including genocide. Plus I do see real examples of rasicm in my daily life. But to raise examples of things like the KFC chicken ad is, to me, ridiculous, and trivialises the real issues of racism that we have in this country.

fine but that doesn't justify portraying ethnic minority groups with negative associations, sorry but it doesn't.

and the fact that you think thats ok becuase the majority of Australians are white just proves my point perfectly.

shepherd · Post by **shepherd** » Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:44 pm

mrj - i think advertisers have more of a duty that to just move product ... they need to have some sort of contribution to society beyond the direct consequence of using humans to manufacture/move units and in doing so create employment. society is 'the market' so thus don't they have a vested interest in that? i don't think they need to be upstanding citizens we all hold high as noble ... but i think they need to play a bit more of a role (on the flipside there's nothing worse than a company that wants to be a 'diligent global citizen' ... cos it helps them make more profit and lobby the govt but that's another thread i guess)

the only group that really cover various cultures in ads are the govt - because they have to to represent the population but to also show attention to the various cultures and acknowledge their voting power and impact on a govts mandate to govern. now - if the govt take this angle ... how come other companies don't (specifically FMCG ones) and they always promote anglo people as the goal to aspire to despite most products being purchased by more than just whitey?

now - i know the answer to this and so does everyone else ... but it's still something to think about. I've worked in advertising for years and lots on FMCG and retail and see loads of segmentation etc that shows exactly who is buying x product and visiting x store - it's too sweeping a statement to say they all 'marketing to white people'

Hardy · Post by **Hardy** » Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:46 pm

youthful_implants wrote:
fine but that doesn't justify portraying ethnic minority groups with negative associations, sorry but it doesn't.

and the fact that you think thats ok becuase the majority of Australians are white just proves my point perfectly.

I still don't see any examples of negative associations though, just an ABSENCE of minorities, which is not the same thing.

youthful_implants · Post by **youthful_implants** » Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:47 pm

Hardy wrote:
youthful_implants wrote:
fine but that doesn't justify portraying ethnic minority groups with negative associations, sorry but it doesn't.

and the fact that you think thats ok becuase the majority of Australians are white just proves my point perfectly.
I still don't see any examples of negative associations though, just an ABSENCE of minorities, which is not the same thing.

An absence in Melbourne?

Are you sure?

Hardy · Post by **Hardy** » Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:47 pm

shepherd wrote:mrj - i think advertisers have more of a duty that to just move product ... they need to have some sort of contribution to society beyond the direct consequence of using humans to manufacture/move units and in doing so create employment. society is 'the market' so thus don't they have a vested interest in that? i don't think they need to be upstanding citizens we all hold high as noble ... but i think they need to play a bit more of a role (on the flipside there's nothing worse than a company that wants to be a 'diligent global citizen' ... cos it helps them make more profit and lobby the govt but that's another thread i guess)

If you live in fucking fairyland, then yes, you're right.

Hardy · Post by **Hardy** » Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:48 pm

youthful_implants wrote:
Hardy wrote:
youthful_implants wrote:
fine but that doesn't justify portraying ethnic minority groups with negative associations, sorry but it doesn't.

and the fact that you think thats ok becuase the majority of Australians are white just proves my point perfectly.
I still don't see any examples of negative associations though, just an ABSENCE of minorities, which is not the same thing.
An absence in Melbourne?

Are you sure?

No, in advertising.

almax · Post by **almax** » Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:49 pm

shepherd wrote:mrj - i think advertisers have more of a duty that to just move product ... they need to have some sort of contribution to society beyond the direct consequence of using humans to manufacture/move units and in doing so create employment. society is 'the market' so thus don't they have a vested interest in that? i don't think they need to be upstanding citizens we all hold high as noble ... but i think they need to play a bit more of a role (on the flipside there's nothing worse than a company that wants to be a 'diligent global citizen' ... cos it helps them make more profit and lobby the govt but that's another thread i guess)

rubbish, its not their duty at all, its their duty to get past the morality cops (ACMA?)that let this one go to air.

Mission accomplished, any publicity is good publicity as they say, who wants KFC?

youthful_implants · Post by **youthful_implants** » Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:50 pm

Hardy wrote:
I still don't see any examples of negative associations though, just an ABSENCE of minorities, which is not the same thing.

An absence in Melbourne?

Are you sure?[/quote]

No, in advertising.[/quote]

Yeah I know, so when they are used why cant they beautiful, perfect, sensible, paragons of Australian virtue like all the white folks are?

shepherd · Post by **shepherd** » Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:51 pm

yes hardy i acknowledge what I've said isn't a practical scenario, thanks for the flame.

ghetto kitty · Post by **ghetto kitty** » Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:52 pm

I am loving reading this discussion.

Im too busy to put my 2 cents in which would go for longer than a dollar prolly, but I have been pretty mortified at both ads mentioned.

and i agree with mrj that advertisers dont have any ethical obligation, (and since typing this shep's post - as long as they only offend those NOT in their target mrket, and make those in their target market laugh, they will do it imo)
all they want to do is shock enough to get people to notice the brand, and often they walk a fine line. Lots of things arent ethical when it comes to selling anything, those of us who work in some kinds of marketing/advertising have to think about the best way to get the message across al the time.
do you make people think and hence possibly lose some of them from the start?
do you shove it down their throats so your band becomes like coke but lose those of your customers with a brain?

Having said that, every ad out there relies on stereotypes to get its message across, the blonde waifs who tout feminine hygene products for one, and the cleaning product (was it easy off bam) that is the only TV ad I've seen lately with the bigger woman dancing round the bathroom singing into her product, letting us know that chubby housewives are the only ones who get REALLY excited about cleaning! PFFT!

anyways, im rambling too much to put together a coherent statement, but after discussing racism here with my scottish housie...
we realised that there is a certain casual racism that's accepted here on the surface, and we do think it breeds darker sides to aceptance and division, even if its all fobbed off with 'ah yeah ya bloody.....(insert wrongtown name for different race here)"

youthful_implants · Post by **youthful_implants** » Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

almax wrote:
shepherd wrote:mrj - i think advertisers have more of a duty that to just move product ... they need to have some sort of contribution to society beyond the direct consequence of using humans to manufacture/move units and in doing so create employment. society is 'the market' so thus don't they have a vested interest in that? i don't think they need to be upstanding citizens we all hold high as noble ... but i think they need to play a bit more of a role (on the flipside there's nothing worse than a company that wants to be a 'diligent global citizen' ... cos it helps them make more profit and lobby the govt but that's another thread i guess)
rubbish, its not their duty at all, its their duty to get past the morality cops (ACMA?)that let this one go to air.

no its their duty to everyone that watches the ad, and may or may not have bought or think about buying their products.

which is why these ads have been boo'd off the screen so fast.

shepherd · Post by **shepherd** » Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:58 pm

i guess we can argue back and forth about the obligations of the advertiser in a society sense ... who's responsibility is this and that and blah blah and we can all flame about how awesome we are and how much more we know about advertising and comms and real world realities and shareholder responsibilties and wankwank etc.

i think what YI touched upon which is probably more important is the smug acceptance in middle Australia of moderate levels of racism ... so far really no one has acknowledged this ... does anyone think it's out there?

Hardy · Post by **Hardy** » Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:00 pm

youthful_implants wrote:
Hardy wrote:
I still don't see any examples of negative associations though, just an ABSENCE of minorities, which is not the same thing.
An absence in Melbourne?

Are you sure?

No, in advertising.[/quote]

Yeah I know, so when they are used why cant they beautiful, perfect, sensible, paragons of Australian virtue like all the white folks are?[/quote]

Please provide an example of when they don't.

deviant · Post by **deviant** » Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:02 pm

If you include the minorities in the marketing you get acused of tokenism... you can't win...

Let's all just admit that each race is different to the next, both in appearance and sometimes in culture. Let's get over it, move on, have digs at each other for fun and personal gain, make friends and gennerally act normal and leave it at that... I understand there is underlying serious issues like slavery, genocide and the like that you cannot ignore... but unless you a being subjected to that I fail to see why a slur, a joke or a dig is grounds to call someone racist, it's a fucken add on the telly... GET OVER IT

My point is that some people are definitely recist, and that's really sad... but tbh not much you can to convince someone to start liking something that they currently don't like. Especially when it's based on something as irrational as racism.

YI: my point is not they we should turn our backs and pretend everything is ok when a whole community feels "disenfranchised" etc etc... but look at the facts... a few students got bashed.. for what reason is irrelevant.. and one guy got stabbed to death.. again, for what reason is irrelevant.. That SUX, but it's hardly grounds to call a whole country racist, or even that they have a racism problem.. I mean what about all the other people of all other races that get bashed, killed etc etc... It's the violence that should be dealt with, so I agree with the crack down on knives etc...

Burning effigies of Kevin Rudd in the street in India is going a bit too far don't you think?

It's like the media is trying to create a race war when there isn't one. People love a drama, an issue, something to get passionate about. Let's get passionate about compassion, love, mutual respect etc and leave this sensationalism out of it PLEASE

almax · Post by **almax** » Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:03 pm

youthful_implants wrote:
almax wrote:
shepherd wrote:mrj - i think advertisers have more of a duty that to just move product ... they need to have some sort of contribution to society beyond the direct consequence of using humans to manufacture/move units and in doing so create employment. society is 'the market' so thus don't they have a vested interest in that? i don't think they need to be upstanding citizens we all hold high as noble ... but i think they need to play a bit more of a role (on the flipside there's nothing worse than a company that wants to be a 'diligent global citizen' ... cos it helps them make more profit and lobby the govt but that's another thread i guess)
rubbish, its not their duty at all, its their duty to get past the morality cops (ACMA?)that let this one go to air.
no its their duty to everyone that watches the ad, and may or may not have bought or think about buying their products.

which is why these ads have been boo'd off the screen so fast.

But nobody is gonna watch them if they don't get past the ACMA or whoever OK's the ads to go to air.
What im saying is its not the advertising agency at fault here, its the morality cops that let it be broadcast.

mrj · Post by **mrj** » Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:03 pm

youthful_implants wrote: fine but that doesn't justify portraying ethnic minority groups with negative associations, sorry but it doesn't.

and the fact that you think thats ok becuase the majority of Australians are white just proves my point perfectly.

lol, i can see this eating up most of my day and will have to stop soon but..

I don't think its fine to portray ethnic groups with negative associations, but I don't think that West Indies cricket fans eating chicken falls into this category

and I'm not sure what you mean by "that" when you think that's ok, but if you mean advertisers targeting white people (and yes ben I agree it's naturally more complex and segmented than that) because thats their target market, then yes I think that's okay. I'm not sure if you think that advertisiers should deliberatley advertise to markets that are not their market?

almax · Post by **almax** » Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:05 pm

we need some laughs here

Watch the posted video on YouTube.

deviant · Post by **deviant** » Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:06 pm

mrj wrote:I do believe that rasicsm is a problem in this country. For starters we have a completley disenfranchised indigenous population whose own traditional culture is highly incompatible with the european culture bought here by white settlers, and not a lot has been acheived, or I believed tried, in the past 200 years to get them to work together. If you look into Australia's history their is countless shameful acts, including genocide. Plus I do see real examples of rasicm in my daily life. But to raise examples of things like the KFC chicken ad is, to me, ridiculous, and trivialises the real issues of racism that we have in this country.

word

mrj · Post by **mrj** » Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:06 pm

shepherd wrote: i think what YI touched upon which is probably more important is the smug acceptance in middle Australia of moderate levels of racism ... so far really no one has acknowledged this ... does anyone think it's out there?

Of course. Its inherent in Australian culture and has been for decades, although I think it's getting better slowly over time. I grew up in country victoria and its extremley prevalent there.

btw Wooooohooooooooo hot topic

youthful_implants · Post by **youthful_implants** » Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:10 pm

shepherd wrote:i guess we can argue back and forth about the obligations of the advertiser in a society sense ... who's responsibility is this and that and blah blah and we can all flame about how awesome we are and how much more we know about advertising and comms and real world realities and shareholder responsibilties and wankwank etc.

i think what YI touched upon which is probably more important is the smug acceptance in middle Australia of moderate levels of racism ... so far really no one has acknowledged this ... does anyone think it's out there?

hey Ben thanks for running with this with me, I think its also important to recognise that these same negative stereotypes really affect Australia too in other parts of the world and only by being intelligent and compassionate enough to overcome these issues at home will the rest of the world stand up and say 'Australia isn't a nation of BBQ loving, beer swilling, racist drongos but an intelligent contemporary to be reckoned with.'