i7 Processors, Hyperthreading and OSX

[Direkt]

I'm pretty close to getting myself a new iMac, but am unsure if it's worth going the extra mile to grab the new i7 processor with hyperthreading. I've read in the past that hyperthreading can inhibit performance for audio production - is this a thing of the past, or will it be a thing in the past as software developers update software to better utilise HT technology?

Your help is appreciated.

[Livewire]

Not sure about macs but we recently got a new stealh audio pc workstation which has the new i7 with hyperthreading and it def boosts performance in nuendo/cubase and most likely any ohe daw that support multiple processors. Basically it shows up as 8 seperate CPUs although there are only four. It performs better than a physical 8 core machine using the previous processors... Tho I can't remember what they were called now. If you jump on dawbench forum or even cubendo forum and post the question you'll possibly get a definitive answer re macs... I know vin (tafkat) has done nemerous benchmark tests with both pc and mac, so he might have the info u need. I know for a fact that nuendo/cubase runs a lot better on a pc as opposed to a mac...

[system]

short answer: cpu hyperthreading support is a low level thing that core audio will definitely benefit from. core audio is a os level technology that all (afaik) mac os x audio applications use.

[Direkt]

Thanks all...

Livewire: yeah, I was reading those forums, but they were more specific to Cubase, and from what I gather it's different from DAW to DAW.

System: I've trawled forums and most posts claim Ableton Live 8 does not support HT... but these posts are mostly 6-months old. I've emailed Ableton support for more info... I hope you're right.

It's an extra $300 for the i7 over the i5, just trying to gauge if it's worth it - or if it will be in the near future. I've also read that there's a 6-core i7 (with HT - 12 virtual cores!) scheduled for release in Q1 2010.... decisions, decisions...

[Livewire]

the 6 core i7 sounds mad! decisions indeed....
best of luck mate and keep us posted on how it goes as I'm also interested in getting a Mac someday...

[Direkt]

Mr. Livewire, Sir... here is the answer from Ableton:

Live does not support Hyperthreading and will most likely never (will) do. Hyperthreading basically splits your (physical) CPU cores into virtual cores. Live can only make use of physical cores (the Core i7 processor has 4 physical cores). However, the operating system itself will still benefit from the Core i7's Hyperthreading, which also helps to get a better performance with Live.

I don't know what you're using right now, but you might run the "Live 8 Performance Test" from our forums with your current computer and compare the results with other people's iMacs. The 27" Core i7 iMac usually scores ~20-22% in this test. Here's a link:
http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=111880

[fooishbar]

ht won't ever drop your performance, but a hyperthreaded eight-core system might only perform as well as a true five or six-core system. either way it's a boatload of processing power, so if you're managing to rinse that then i don't know what you're doing tbh.

[Direkt]

For sure... for the moment...

But with software development down the track, we all know that minimum system requirements (and CPU demand) will keep rising and rising... with the nature of iMac's not being upgradable, I just need to ascertain if it's worth paying the extra $300 for the i7 processor over the i5 - or if I'd be better served spending the $300 on an extra 4GB of DDR3 RAM.

I just want to buy wisely.

I'm now pretty much resigned to the fact that I'll grab the i7 - as I can always add RAM at a latter date.

[fooishbar]

right. the i7 is a fucking nice piece of kit, so it's almost certainly worth it ... you can get 4gb of ram for a hell of a lot cheaper than $300 too.

[Blaxter]

Wheres the best place to get DDR3 Ram from in Melbourne?

[system]

But with software development down the track, we all know that minimum system requirements (and CPU demand) will keep rising and rising... with the nature of iMac's not being upgradable, I just need to ascertain if it's worth paying the extra $300 for the i7 processor over the i5 - or if I'd be better served spending the $300 on an extra 4GB of DDR3 RAM.

when you say not upgradeable, you mean the cpu and motherboard. tbh if you're upgrading cpus and other elements on the motherboard, this becomes a whole different discussion (and you will be likely not not be using ableton).

I just want to buy wisely.

some computer purchasing advice:
* buy the best processor you can afford right now
* ram will always get cheaper for it, buy as much as you can when it does

I'm now pretty much resigned to the fact that I'll grab the i7 - as I can always add RAM at a latter date.

good decision. be elated.

[Direkt]

Sweet, cheers

[fooishbar]

Wheres the best place to get DDR3 Ram from in Melbourne?

msy.com.au, standard.

[Blaxter]

Wheres the best place to get DDR3 Ram from in Melbourne?

msy.com.au, standard.

Cheers Foo.

Yeah they are the cheapest. Not the handiest location IMO.
I'll see how I go with the standard 2GB and look at upgrading laters.

[fooishbar]

Wheres the best place to get DDR3 Ram from in Melbourne?

msy.com.au, standard.

Cheers Foo.

Yeah they are the cheapest. Not the handiest location IMO.
I'll see how I go with the standard 2GB and look at upgrading laters.

hm, you know they have one in nth melb too? admittedly it's still kind of a pain in the arse as it's only the 55/57 that really go near it, haha.

a few of the latrobe st ones take online orders, i remember getting some stuff from nexus a little while back and it wasn't too bad, quick delivery a+++++++.

[deviant]

www.cpl.net.au

they in dudley street west melb... I get all my stuff from there.. very cheap

[fooishbar]

oh nice, they were always pretty good but out in mt waverley so i never bothered.

or you could go to the swap meet and get a hot dog too.

[Livewire]

Sounds like the i7's the way to go... tbh I don't think you can have enough cpu power cause if you have the headroom you hit it within the first session....or at least I have (turned the RME to 32samples latency and loaded a few heavy plugz). Even just for the joy of lower latency buffers and more responsive midi its worth it. If your using lots of sampled instruments like kontakt, vsl, bfd etc you can eat up ram pretty quick, but I've only come to that with orchestral type templates...4gb probably fine for usual projects.
Not sure how MACs deal with the whole 32 vs 64 bit thing but PCs are a pita if you want to access more than 2gb ram in a 32bit environment which most of audio plugins are in. I gotta use bridging programs like jbridge and vienna ensemble to get around this and is the only way to access the full 8gb. Maybe suss out how Macs deal with the whole ram thing in 32bit before forking out cash on extra... maybe some of you guys can shed light on this?

[unsoundbwoy]

osx 10.5 can access 4gb per process yeh? so if you got 8gb ya DAW can use 4gb and the os can use the other 4gb
10.6 is 64 bit so it shouldn't have that limitation, but i haven't upgraded coz ableton don't support it yet.

px. not an expert.

[Direkt]

osx 10.5 can access 4gb per process yeh? so if you got 8gb ya DAW can use 4gb and the os can use the other 4gb
10.6 is 64 bit so it shouldn't have that limitation, but i haven't upgraded coz ableton don't support it yet.

px. not an expert.

That's a bitch.

Hopefully they will in the future... my new machine will be running 10.6 SL standard, here's hoping Ableton play catch up sometime soon.

[Blaxter]

or you could go to the swap meet and get a hot dog too.

Take it too the quality food thread. lol

[fooishbar]

if i remember right, running a 32-bit process under 64-bit os x does give you 4GB per process (or maybe 3). either way, once it's 64-bit under snow leopard you're sweet.

[same o]

nerd.com log in log on... imo

[fooishbar]

same 'i look at electronics and they stop working' o

[Livewire]

nerd.com log in log on... imo

c'mon mate, surely you prefer a 64bit os to a 32bit os.....

[same o]

same 'i look at electronics and they stop working' o

should be :noteef: it used to happen with digital watches, would have em for a week and they would die..

maybe cuz they were casio, but i dunno.

i kill electronics YO!

[unsoundbwoy]

osx 10.5 can access 4gb per process yeh? so if you got 8gb ya DAW can use 4gb and the os can use the other 4gb
10.6 is 64 bit so it shouldn't have that limitation, but i haven't upgraded coz ableton don't support it yet.

px. not an expert.

That's a bitch.

Hopefully they will in the future... my new machine will be running 10.6 SL standard, here's hoping Ableton play catch up sometime soon.

should still be 'fine' to run it. can't see how live 8 could run any more buggy anyway.

[Direkt]

^you've had problems?

I've got 8 on my Macbook Pro, but I don't use it for production much - been running 7 at home on the PC.

[unsoundbwoy]

me and christian at tech support have a close and personal relationship since 8 came out
after a lot of messing about i think it's biggest problem has been communication with AU plugs, so now i avoid them and all is well
sometimes the problem manifests in odd ways, like it would crash when copy and pasting or adjusting region
8.09 was a farce, made so many projects unable to load, but that's been resolved.
has been a hassle but i've learnt a heap about diagnosing problems on a mac so all is not bad

[Direkt]

Pur-chased.

Can't wait for it to arrive!