Monitors
Monitors
What kind of monitors to people use? I've been working with truths with Logic recently and they seem pretty good, however the get a bit of a bagging on the net. What's a good make and model for around the $1000 mark?
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Shadowgames
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Little Evil
I use the newest version of the Tannoy Reveals - (See Motive's studio in the 'your setup' thread - he has similar monitors, but mine are a newer model)
Wicked sound, flat response.
When I bought them I spent two hours in the try-out room listening to everything from Genelec to Alesis.
These sounded the best to me, and were awesome value.
Had my heart set on some Genelecs, but changed my mind when I had a good listen to these.
Getting the sub-woofer in the next couple of months to complete the set.
Also, have my JBL Eon DJ speakers now setup through a patch bay, so I can switch from the Tannoy's to the JBL's, so I can get a good feeling of what my tunes are going to sound like on a club system, and even everything out smoothly in the process of making them.
Mastering is still my weak point, and am working really hard to get it down. The Tannoys have ben fantastic for my learning curve, and training my ears.
Played my tunes for the first time at Local Line-up 2 the other week, and everything came out sweet - so I guess I've made a good choice.
Lots more to learn though, but it's great to have awesome monitors - don't know what the fuck I was doing beforehand?
Wicked sound, flat response.
When I bought them I spent two hours in the try-out room listening to everything from Genelec to Alesis.
These sounded the best to me, and were awesome value.
Had my heart set on some Genelecs, but changed my mind when I had a good listen to these.
Getting the sub-woofer in the next couple of months to complete the set.
Also, have my JBL Eon DJ speakers now setup through a patch bay, so I can switch from the Tannoy's to the JBL's, so I can get a good feeling of what my tunes are going to sound like on a club system, and even everything out smoothly in the process of making them.
Mastering is still my weak point, and am working really hard to get it down. The Tannoys have ben fantastic for my learning curve, and training my ears.
Played my tunes for the first time at Local Line-up 2 the other week, and everything came out sweet - so I guess I've made a good choice.
Lots more to learn though, but it's great to have awesome monitors - don't know what the fuck I was doing beforehand?
Last edited by Little Evil on Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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unsoundbwoy
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Little Evil
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Shadowgames
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My moniters of choice would probably be Yamaha NS10's although they are getting pretty hard to find these days since they were discontinued. They arnt amazing speakers, but if you get a good mix outta them, it will sound great on anything....also a lot of studios still have them so they are a good point of reference. For sub heavy music however, you will also need a sub (only good if you set it up properly though) or another pair of moniters with better bass response to really tweak your low end.
In terms of high end moniters I am getting pretty sold on the Adams range because they respond well when cranked, have ribbon tweaters (so you can mix longer without fatigue) and sound wicked.
At the end of the day, its really about getting something you like the sound of (and can afford), and then working with them enough so you know exactly how your mixes will translate to different listening mediums and situations.
In terms of high end moniters I am getting pretty sold on the Adams range because they respond well when cranked, have ribbon tweaters (so you can mix longer without fatigue) and sound wicked.
At the end of the day, its really about getting something you like the sound of (and can afford), and then working with them enough so you know exactly how your mixes will translate to different listening mediums and situations.
they are gr8, best thing i ever did was buy a pair of dyn's.Shadowgames wrote:Motive wrote:Dynaudios are nice.
U get what u pay for is the golden rule.
my thought is, save up a lil more money to get what u want, dont settle for 2nd best just coz u want a pair of monitors straight away.
you cant hear what ur speakers cant reproduce, and yes it does apply that if u can get a good mix on the NS'10's that it will sound good in most other places, atlhough i dont think id settle for just a pair of them, they are good as an A/B.
and yes unfortutantly the golden rule is $$$ u did get what u pay for.
save.
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munt beard
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I have KRK 6's - love love LOVE them. They weren't that expensive either. $700 or so?
Go and compare the truth's to other monitors before you buy them - I know there is plenty of people out there that like them, but myeeeah. I really wasnt impressed. Much better off saving the extra bit of money and getting something far more superior.
Go and compare the truth's to other monitors before you buy them - I know there is plenty of people out there that like them, but myeeeah. I really wasnt impressed. Much better off saving the extra bit of money and getting something far more superior.
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factory worker
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It sucks to think that you have to spend shit loads, but it's only gonna set you up for the future, not just now.gb wrote:Cheers for the feedback people. It's been like a "spend more" intervention for this cheap skate. Although as I'm going back to school this year, saving could be difficult.
I brought a huge bass rig when I was in my first year of Uni, cost about half my years income at the time, and I never used it regularly fro 2 years, but then I had a wicked amp evry gig, and for recording with, plus I got to loan it out and even hire it to other bands for their gigs ets.
The best way to cure a broken heart is to give the pieces away
don't know much about the m-audio's.. but can fully support mackie in these stakes.
I use mackie HR624's, and also have a pair of Alesis Mone's (originals) underneath.
I have always liked the sound of Alesis monitors, though I'm yet to check out their latest. I thought that the Alesis Mk2's had the best bass response out of the 6" monitor ranges (tested with pure sine and 808 kickdrum samples) ...although KRK have recently released their new babies - sweet.
For 6" drivers the HR624's have the largest, most clearly defined bottom end of any speaker I checked.. partially due to them being unported (using a drone-cone instead)..so you never, ever get port huff, and also because mackie OWN on their amplifier and crossover technologies.
A lot of the larger 8" monitors can be really fatiguing, like the mackie HR824's... i couldn't use them for more than a few hours before I wanted to go outside and NOT hear bass.
Also with larger monitors you have to consider placement... the larger the drivers and lower their range can go the further away from you they should be.
Dependent on room-size of course, but if you walk a few metres away from yr monitors you'll find the bass much better represented.
For 6" nearfields you should have yr monitors at LEAST a metre from yr head (tw owould be better) and around a metre and a half apart (for good stereo separation).
tctk
I use mackie HR624's, and also have a pair of Alesis Mone's (originals) underneath.
I have always liked the sound of Alesis monitors, though I'm yet to check out their latest. I thought that the Alesis Mk2's had the best bass response out of the 6" monitor ranges (tested with pure sine and 808 kickdrum samples) ...although KRK have recently released their new babies - sweet.
For 6" drivers the HR624's have the largest, most clearly defined bottom end of any speaker I checked.. partially due to them being unported (using a drone-cone instead)..so you never, ever get port huff, and also because mackie OWN on their amplifier and crossover technologies.
A lot of the larger 8" monitors can be really fatiguing, like the mackie HR824's... i couldn't use them for more than a few hours before I wanted to go outside and NOT hear bass.
Also with larger monitors you have to consider placement... the larger the drivers and lower their range can go the further away from you they should be.
Dependent on room-size of course, but if you walk a few metres away from yr monitors you'll find the bass much better represented.
For 6" nearfields you should have yr monitors at LEAST a metre from yr head (tw owould be better) and around a metre and a half apart (for good stereo separation).
tctk
They're not the flattest monitors out there (M1's), they do produce a fair bit of bass for a 6.5" cone. But it does depend on your setup, room size etc.
But for the price they're going for in some stores, they're certainly still good value for money.
Check these though:
http://www.samsontech.com/products/prod ... &brandID=2
RRP: $899, also available in smaller and cheaper 5" version - or the bigger 8" version. Ribbon HF drivers - mmmm.
But for the price they're going for in some stores, they're certainly still good value for money.
Check these though:
http://www.samsontech.com/products/prod ... &brandID=2
RRP: $899, also available in smaller and cheaper 5" version - or the bigger 8" version. Ribbon HF drivers - mmmm.
i think spherix said that m1's had fake bass... dunno about the term "fake", but the higher harmonics of bass tones are more accentuated to give the impression of more bass. Actual fake bass can be found in little speakers that have things such as a little DSP chip with an algorithm in it - like Maxxbass by waves etc - in some of creative's (the company Creative that is.)portable speakers.
Righto... Tascam have some new monitors (VL-X5) that are looking very nice on paper. And word is, they're gonna be CHEAP, like hopefully sub $600 (currently $900).
Check all the spec's here:
http://www.tascam.com/Products/vlx5.html
Check all the spec's here:
http://www.tascam.com/Products/vlx5.html
ok - well i did say that u get what you pay for but I can't agree with the statement above. i really don't think it's true that $1000 are half as good a $2000 speakers. truth is, if you're just starting out then buying really good monitors is a waste of time cos your ears still won't be really accustomed to interpreting it. in short, you'll probably still make shit mixes. that's just part of it. there's nothing wrong with buying an entry level set - and then when u get good, you sell em and buy a better pair. you'll know when you've out-grown them.munt beard wrote:I learn't to mix on Genelecs, and was rapt to pick up a pair of newer ones last year. $1000 speakers are only gonna be half as good as $2000 - like everyone else has commented really.
What you want for making any kind of dance music is a pair with a decent amount of bass. this is why Mackie 824s are so popular for D&B, they sort of re-create a club environment. but the Tapco S-8s are good for this exact reason but cost half the price - they've got big ol 8" woofers and output loads of bass. they're not as detailed as the 824s but fuck it, you're making dance music (i'm guessing) - you're probably not mixing down violin concertos or mastering acoustic sessions. mixing on something like Yamaha NS-10 or any 5" woofer monitor - well, to be honest it just isn't much fun. the alesis models don't really have great bass. the truths have the same problem. you don't have to spend a fortune if you're starting out. but most places will be totally happy to have u go in with a CD and play some tunes and let u A-B between monitors.
^ Horse for course I'm guessing. I've got a mate with the Tapco's your referring to and we both found them to be severely lacking in bass (particularly for a 8" woofer). He's now running the system with a 120w 10" sub and they do sound awesome now.
I guess a lot depends on monitor placement etc, but I can't say I found the S-8's to have anywhere near adequate bass for a 8" cone.
.... but that's just me and my epxerience.
I guess a lot depends on monitor placement etc, but I can't say I found the S-8's to have anywhere near adequate bass for a 8" cone.
.... but that's just me and my epxerience.
I've been on Dynaudio BM6a's for about a year.
Got Mackie HR824's and a set of NS10's lying around as well.
The Mackie's haven't been used since I got the Dyns.... The Dyns are in a different league, although the Mackie's are still very usable monitors. (they were my main monitors for about 5 years....of course, all my mixes sucked during that time....hmm, they still do come to think of it!..... but I put that down to user error rather than the monitors.
)
I just find that the Dyns seem to let you hear a lot more detail in the mids - high mids than the Mackie's......and the Mackie's, although sounding "dull" in comparison to the Dyns, seem to have a bit more artificial sparkle in the REALLY high stuff compared to the Dyns....which can be a little misleading at times.
Although once you learn your monitors and your room, then these things become irrelevant anyway.
Still something I love about NS10s though as well....the way they just spit the sound out at you......I love it!!! (although my ear drums hate it!!!!) I still use them as another reference all the time though......especially towards the end of a mix.
Got Mackie HR824's and a set of NS10's lying around as well.
The Mackie's haven't been used since I got the Dyns.... The Dyns are in a different league, although the Mackie's are still very usable monitors. (they were my main monitors for about 5 years....of course, all my mixes sucked during that time....hmm, they still do come to think of it!..... but I put that down to user error rather than the monitors.
)I just find that the Dyns seem to let you hear a lot more detail in the mids - high mids than the Mackie's......and the Mackie's, although sounding "dull" in comparison to the Dyns, seem to have a bit more artificial sparkle in the REALLY high stuff compared to the Dyns....which can be a little misleading at times.
Although once you learn your monitors and your room, then these things become irrelevant anyway.
Still something I love about NS10s though as well....the way they just spit the sound out at you......I love it!!! (although my ear drums hate it!!!!) I still use them as another reference all the time though......especially towards the end of a mix.
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Shadowgames
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Shadowgames wrote:^^^ yay! another BM6A user!
<3<3<3
Although I gotta admit that when I was monitor hunting a year ago, there was actually a set of Genelecs that I prefered over the Dynaudios...... but then the dude who brings them into Aus decided to bump up the price at the last minute (and they were already more expensive than the Dyns as it was) to a ridiculous price so I just thought "screw you" and settled with the Dyns.
In the end, it's his loss I guess, as I'm quite happy with the Dyns now.
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munt beard
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Semantics aside. the reality is if $1000 don't bring the noise long term and you end up buying more expensive ones they have only done half a job of sya $2000 ones. shit mixes can be attributed to more than just quality or performance of speakers. odds are if you invest more money into your set up, you'll be commited to setting up your production area to make the most of their quality, rather than slapping them near a PC and blaming any acoustic or frequency response problems on the speakers and waiting until your ears have adjusted and wallet has recovered to be in a position to buy better ones.Motive wrote:ok - well i did say that u get what you pay for but I can't agree with the statement above. i really don't think it's true that $1000 are half as good a $2000 speakers. truth is, if you're just starting out then buying really good monitors is a waste of time cos your ears still won't be really accustomed to interpreting it. in short, you'll probably still make shit mixes. that's just part of it. there's nothing wrong with buying an entry level set - and then when u get good, you sell em and buy a better pair. you'll know when you've out-grown them.munt beard wrote:I learn't to mix on Genelecs, and was rapt to pick up a pair of newer ones last year. $1000 speakers are only gonna be half as good as $2000 - like everyone else has commented really.
What you want for making any kind of dance music is a pair with a decent amount of bass. this is why Mackie 824s are so popular for D&B, they sort of re-create a club environment. but the Tapco S-8s are good for this exact reason but cost half the price - they've got big ol 8" woofers and output loads of bass. they're not as detailed as the 824s but fuck it, you're making dance music (i'm guessing) - you're probably not mixing down violin concertos or mastering acoustic sessions. mixing on something like Yamaha NS-10 or any 5" woofer monitor - well, to be honest it just isn't much fun. the alesis models don't really have great bass. the truths have the same problem. you don't have to spend a fortune if you're starting out. but most places will be totally happy to have u go in with a CD and play some tunes and let u A-B between monitors.
and I can't believe the arrogance of assuming some one who is buying their own home speakers isn't capable of mixing down tunes without wasting time on cheap crap.
to be really honest, this kind of thread is not really helpful to the discerning buyer. no ones experience or knowledge can be quantified. so it's all assumptions, limited experience and hearsay.
alright, fair point.munt beard wrote:
Semantics aside. the reality is if $1000 don't bring the noise long term and you end up buying more expensive ones they have only done half a job of sya $2000 ones. shit mixes can be attributed to more than just quality or performance of speakers. odds are if you invest more money into your set up, you'll be commited to setting up your production area to make the most of their quality, rather than slapping them near a PC and blaming any acoustic or frequency response problems on the speakers and waiting until your ears have adjusted and wallet has recovered to be in a position to buy better ones.
woah. ez selector. wasn't suggesting someone should buy cheap crap.munt beard wrote: and I can't believe the arrogance of assuming some one who is buying their own home speakers isn't capable of mixing down tunes without wasting time on cheap crap.
.
I another thing about monitors is that your ears can become accustomed to just about any pair after a while.
My uni had JBLs that I thought were complete crap when I first heard them but over the space of three years I came to know and love their dryness and detail.
I have Tannoy Reveal Actives at home and I know people with all sorts of monitors both cheap and expensive and most are all capable of pulling reasonable sounds out of them reagardless of their apparent quality. I reckon its because your ears just adjust to the inconsistencies.
I suppose a flatter response is better for translation to other environments but neafield speakers are inherently flawed in that respect because their response changes in every room you put them in. Comb filitering and room resonances can turn awesome monitors in screaming dog turds simply by moving them around your studio space.
I recommend just getting the best you can afford then just A/B your mix with pro mixes all the way through . Also make sure to listen to music through your monitors as often as possible to get a good feel for them and don't point them inwards (or put them on their sides) like an equilateral triangle because that is total rubbish and stuffs up your ability to pan properly and smears the sound field. Also, for a more open extended bass go and buy six of those little rubber stopper things and stick'em to the bottom of the speakers in a triangle (two at the front and one at the back of each speaker) to decouple the speakers from your desktop (people with those acoustic foam things or proper speaker stands can just keep on rockin' and ignore this bit) - it allows the speaker enclosure to resonate more freely which in turn prevents the bass from being muffled or stunted.
Finally make sure your speakers sound good in your room. If they sound crap then move them until they do (I swapped rooms in my apartment and ended up giving away a chair to fit my gear in the lounge but now my monitors sound pretty good) or take 'em back. Listening to speakers at the shop means nothing. Its like buying a car after just reving/idling at the dealership without test driving it on the open road.
My uni had JBLs that I thought were complete crap when I first heard them but over the space of three years I came to know and love their dryness and detail.
I have Tannoy Reveal Actives at home and I know people with all sorts of monitors both cheap and expensive and most are all capable of pulling reasonable sounds out of them reagardless of their apparent quality. I reckon its because your ears just adjust to the inconsistencies.
I suppose a flatter response is better for translation to other environments but neafield speakers are inherently flawed in that respect because their response changes in every room you put them in. Comb filitering and room resonances can turn awesome monitors in screaming dog turds simply by moving them around your studio space.
I recommend just getting the best you can afford then just A/B your mix with pro mixes all the way through . Also make sure to listen to music through your monitors as often as possible to get a good feel for them and don't point them inwards (or put them on their sides) like an equilateral triangle because that is total rubbish and stuffs up your ability to pan properly and smears the sound field. Also, for a more open extended bass go and buy six of those little rubber stopper things and stick'em to the bottom of the speakers in a triangle (two at the front and one at the back of each speaker) to decouple the speakers from your desktop (people with those acoustic foam things or proper speaker stands can just keep on rockin' and ignore this bit) - it allows the speaker enclosure to resonate more freely which in turn prevents the bass from being muffled or stunted.
Finally make sure your speakers sound good in your room. If they sound crap then move them until they do (I swapped rooms in my apartment and ended up giving away a chair to fit my gear in the lounge but now my monitors sound pretty good) or take 'em back. Listening to speakers at the shop means nothing. Its like buying a car after just reving/idling at the dealership without test driving it on the open road.
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unsoundbwoy
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If not too rude GB what did you pay ? As i am about to buy some new monitors.
On my list so far are
Genelac's 8030's and matching sub speaker
Alesis M1 Active with s10 sub woofer
or the KRK V8's with sub
On my list so far are
Genelac's 8030's and matching sub speaker
Alesis M1 Active with s10 sub woofer
or the KRK V8's with sub
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a1studmuffin
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IMO it doesn't matter what monitors you by as long as they sound good in the space your working with - that is everything - that is paramount to good mixes. Think about it, all monitors are tested in an anechoic chamber that has no or extremely low acoustic reflection - your bedroom or lounge room would be a crazy echo box in comparison with all sorts of weird frequential anomalies peaking and dipping many dB in ways that would surprise the crap about you.
So buy some monitors (obviously the best you can afford) and just work on getting them sounding right in the room and get used to hearing good mixes through them - don't buy the hype on monitors because if you sniff around you'll soon realise that Dynaudios and Genelecs and whatever else people are pushing on you don't really make good mixes any more than cheap stuff like the Behringer truths or the Samson ribbon tweeter thingies do. Take the yamaha Ns10 for example - horrendous monitors - terrrible frenquential response - many hits mixed on them...
So buy some monitors (obviously the best you can afford) and just work on getting them sounding right in the room and get used to hearing good mixes through them - don't buy the hype on monitors because if you sniff around you'll soon realise that Dynaudios and Genelecs and whatever else people are pushing on you don't really make good mixes any more than cheap stuff like the Behringer truths or the Samson ribbon tweeter thingies do. Take the yamaha Ns10 for example - horrendous monitors - terrrible frenquential response - many hits mixed on them...
^^ You're pretty much right Direktor.
NS-10s were commonly referenced as sounding like standard quality consumer hi-fi technology. It was considered as a good way of understanding how mixes would translate to consumer stuff.
Auratones are another example of this. A stack of pro mixers use one or two of these little crappy speakers for balancing decisions. Bob Clearmountain (INXS, Robbie Williams, Bruce Sprinsteen, Crowded House, The Rolling Stones and a bunch of million selling artists) uses a pair of Apple multimedia speakers that have two inch speakers in them to mix million selling albums.
Heres some advice from his site:
"Listen to your mix on as many different sets of speakers as you can get your hands on, and keep changing monitor levels randomly. Ironically, the only type of speakers that really mean nothing for pop & rock record mixing are large, soffet-mounted studio monitors. Believe it or not, I find the easiest speakers to judge vocal, bass and bass drum levels & eq are my little self-powered Apple computer speakers, that, of course they stopped making. "
http://www.mixthis.com/bobframeset.html
Of course mixers use all sorts of monitoring during many stages of the mix but that just confirms what I've been saying and that is that the type of monitor doesn't really matter so much as long as your room is working with them rather than against them and you can trust whats coming out of them.
NS-10s were commonly referenced as sounding like standard quality consumer hi-fi technology. It was considered as a good way of understanding how mixes would translate to consumer stuff.
Auratones are another example of this. A stack of pro mixers use one or two of these little crappy speakers for balancing decisions. Bob Clearmountain (INXS, Robbie Williams, Bruce Sprinsteen, Crowded House, The Rolling Stones and a bunch of million selling artists) uses a pair of Apple multimedia speakers that have two inch speakers in them to mix million selling albums.
Heres some advice from his site:
"Listen to your mix on as many different sets of speakers as you can get your hands on, and keep changing monitor levels randomly. Ironically, the only type of speakers that really mean nothing for pop & rock record mixing are large, soffet-mounted studio monitors. Believe it or not, I find the easiest speakers to judge vocal, bass and bass drum levels & eq are my little self-powered Apple computer speakers, that, of course they stopped making. "
http://www.mixthis.com/bobframeset.html
Of course mixers use all sorts of monitoring during many stages of the mix but that just confirms what I've been saying and that is that the type of monitor doesn't really matter so much as long as your room is working with them rather than against them and you can trust whats coming out of them.
well we have some beringer truths and they are near passable. they are not mine and i wouldnt pay too much for them
i watched the matthew jonson video from one of the red bull academy lectures and he brough out some pearls of wisdom on this topic
he mixes down on a pair of club foldback speakers (probably similar to jbls or ev's) and this is because his music is mostly to be played in clubs. he finds that using amazing monitors can make you more sensitive to finer frequency ranges and you can end up getting all excited about these minute rhythems you have going on, then once the track is played out in a club in combination with the room's reverbs and noise all your work has been for nothing.
i tend to agree, i think once i buy some good monitors i may grab the krk's and a sub
he also says that his brother who makes music as hrdvision (hot shit btw) mixes his music down on a ghettoblaster and basically achieves the same result. this pushes the monitoring on known sources thing.
i watched the matthew jonson video from one of the red bull academy lectures and he brough out some pearls of wisdom on this topic
he mixes down on a pair of club foldback speakers (probably similar to jbls or ev's) and this is because his music is mostly to be played in clubs. he finds that using amazing monitors can make you more sensitive to finer frequency ranges and you can end up getting all excited about these minute rhythems you have going on, then once the track is played out in a club in combination with the room's reverbs and noise all your work has been for nothing.
i tend to agree, i think once i buy some good monitors i may grab the krk's and a sub
he also says that his brother who makes music as hrdvision (hot shit btw) mixes his music down on a ghettoblaster and basically achieves the same result. this pushes the monitoring on known sources thing.
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SoulWhiteMan
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i'm thinking about picking up some Behringer MS20s or 40s for that very reason.
I don't see the point of forking out big bucks on high end equipment when I'm stuck in my 4.5x4.5 bedroom, living at home, with my whiny stoner brother, big windows and lots of natural sound from the great outdoors....
anyones general thoughts on the MS20's or 40s would be appreciated greatly
http://www.storedj.com.au/products/product.php?id=896
even if they're a piece of shit, they'll sound better than hi fi and I'll just use them as "entertainment" speakers
and 180 bucks is farkall
thoughts, ideas, opinions?
I don't see the point of forking out big bucks on high end equipment when I'm stuck in my 4.5x4.5 bedroom, living at home, with my whiny stoner brother, big windows and lots of natural sound from the great outdoors....
anyones general thoughts on the MS20's or 40s would be appreciated greatly
http://www.storedj.com.au/products/product.php?id=896
even if they're a piece of shit, they'll sound better than hi fi and I'll just use them as "entertainment" speakers
and 180 bucks is farkall
thoughts, ideas, opinions?