digital music, albums, new paradigms in shareing music.

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flippo
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digital music, albums, new paradigms in shareing music.

Post by flippo »

Had an interesting discussion with Kwality the other weekend about how people listen to music these days.

How many of you still sit and listen to an album in its entirety, in the order as intended by the artists? I can't help but notice how it is much less likely these days than back in the day when you had to get up and physically change the CD.

I'm talking about 'album music' as opposed to DJ'ing, singles and vinyl etc.

It's so easy to shuffle tunes around with mp3 players, massive playlists, the random button. Most electronic music albums are really a collection of singles, but there are exceptions. Albums from guys like deep chord really work best when listened all the way through, same goes for a lot of post rock type work, a fair chunk of hiphop and other electronica.

Interestingly, people seem more than happy to sit through an hour long mp3 of a podcast. With that in mind, do you think you would be open to the idea of an album that was packaged as one long mp3 in digital format, with the view of encouraging a 'proper' listen? Or does the idea seem patronising to you at all?

I'm talking about a progressive collection of sounds or movements that are not conducive to DJ'ing and aren't necessarily distinguishable 'tracks' on their own. From the producers point of view, kind of like building a DJ set from the ground up I guess?

It's something that already happens with a handful of 'trackless' CD albums, or albums where tracks are cut into 2-4 larger chunks, but I think the necessity is not needed so much there as people tend to put CD's on and listen to them properly.

There may be some logistical difficulties with the way digital music is sold and cataloguing as well.



I guess there are other problems with MP3 albums. I love that I can get so many of them so easily, but there is a bit of lost magic. No artwork, liner notes etc. This is something we've probably discussed here before. What ways are you seeing music 'packaged' (not necessarily physically) that still fits in with how people access media but provides something a bit more special than a handful of mp3s? Perhaps other means of sharing music with people are not via the usual retail method, incorporated with other mediums of art perhaps. I think Corey (Kwality) made an excellent point with me when he noted that if you think of how music is enjoyed historically, perhaps the idea of physically buying recorded music directly in its own right is just a little cultural blip on the radar that really only lasted a couple of generations? I think vinyl only really occurred after the turn of the century, end even then most people would have got their music from live performances, either casually and formally.





:teefnilly:
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Re: digital music, albums, new paradigms in shareing music.

Post by Amick »

Excellent post/topic flippopotamus.

I'll respond later when I have a bit of time to ponder your questions and thoughts.
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Re: digital music, albums, new paradigms in shareing music.

Post by huge »

if someone releases an album that is meant for listening start to finish with all tunes contributing to an overall theme or narrative, then im not going to want to change it if it's done well. if it's a bunch of tunes slapped together then i wont have an issue with skipping tunes or changing the record completely. however i still regularly listen to albumbs from start to finnish. all the time actually!
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Re: digital music, albums, new paradigms in shareing music.

Post by Cubist »

Interesting. I think about this a bit. As you said...way before ‘recordings’ were available. It was people performing music. Maybe then (and I’m only guessing) music was documented in the form of dots on paper or stone somewhere around the turn from BC to AD. Then in you fast forward around 1900 years we have vinyl recording. So, yeah Flippo, maybe we too hung up on the physical media thing. Cause when you look at the timeline. We only had physical recorded media such as vinyl and CD’s for a nothing of time. Maybe artists had it good in the 1950’ and 1960’s and beyond. Being able to make money on performances as well as recordings. I dunno about the future. But good DJ sets or artist albums are like Symphonies to me. Different moods and colours over time.
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Re: digital music, albums, new paradigms in shareing music.

Post by unsoundbwoy »

i mostly listen to full albums, though if I don't like a song or two, I'll set the playlist to skip them
i bought a few cds this year, off people i wanted to support whose MP3 releases were overpriced, if
an album of 320s is about $10 I'd rather spend $20 and get uncompressed songs and a cd, to then
rip and sit on the shelf..

and i definitely think that the 1930-1990s concept of labels and owning music and all that is changing,
both as a distribution method and as cultural practise, the way we create has in a more obvious way
shifted back to an evolving and collaborative process, sampling, remix culture, versioning, youtube, etc
as per usual i think wanyeandwax nailed it with his songs as shared things post

going back to roots and adding computers imo
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Re: digital music, albums, new paradigms in shareing music.

Post by unsoundbwoy »

Cubist wrote:Interesting. I think about this a bit. As you said...way before ‘recordings’ were available. It was people performing music. Maybe then (and I’m only guessing) music was documented in the form of dots on paper or stone somewhere around the turn from BC to AD.
sheet music sold in mad quantities until the 10s/20s when furniture companies realised they could make coin out of selling gramaphones and wax discs
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Re: digital music, albums, new paradigms in shareing music.

Post by youthful_implants »

There are a few albums I will listen to throughout still. I'm very impatient so I like skipping to songs that I prefer.

if you dont have to by a whole album then why would you?

most albums I have ever listened to have had good songs and bad songs, I like being able to pick and choose which I buy so I dont have to listen to the ones which are average.

most people with even the vaguest appreciation of music know how to make a playlist and will put together songs that fit in the order they want to hear them.

I'm not saying the album is dead as a format, if anything, as an artist you have to work harder to maintain a level of quality throughout.

I must admit I listen to fewer and fewer DJ mixes. The problem with 99% of dance music is its dynamically one dimensional. Not enough contrast or light and shade.
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Re: digital music, albums, new paradigms in shareing music.

Post by manofunreal »

I'm not a big fan of listening to individual tracks and would rarely buy a single at all. Every time I get an album I will listen to it all the way through for at least the first few listens. However, most albums will have a few tracks that start to shit me after the first few listens so at that point I like to be able to skip them. In that case it would be annoying if they were just one big long MP3.

I think the only things I listen to regularly that are just one long track are DJ mixes, so if there are 2+ minute sections of a mix that shit me I'm just not very likely to keep listening to it. The same would apply if people were to release studio albums as one big long track.
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Re: digital music, albums, new paradigms in shareing music.

Post by DBoy »

huge wrote:if someone releases an album that is meant for listening start to finish with all tunes contributing to an overall theme or narrative, then im not going to want to change it if it's done well. if it's a bunch of tunes slapped together then i wont have an issue with skipping tunes or changing the record completely. however i still regularly listen to albumbs from start to finnish. all the time actually!
This. I think the issue is not the listener as much as it is the artists.

Talking more about electronic producers here - but I am finding less and less full length releases that I actually want to listen to from start to finish in the order intended. I think Foundation and Alix Perez have come the closest in the last year from a DnB point of view. I am happy to listen to both those albums in full and feel like I have been taken somewhere musically and stylistically during the listen. The tracks progress and form a whole.
This is not the case with so many beats releases though and it is disappointing. I am so much more likely to only buy single tracks from artists these days because the likelihood of me listening to a whole album are slim. It is usually only if I hear a recommendation of an album i'd grab the whole thing...

There is a real art to putting an album together. Ask Goldie.
In some cases it works because a similar style is used throughout and leaves an impression by defining the sound and mood from start to finish - (think High Contrast).
In other cases it is the progression through styles that shifts the mood, moving throughout, offering up various feelings and textures that when listened to together provide a journey - (think Foundation).

In terms of presenting an album as a single piece of music... I think if it was done right it could be interesting, especially if the piece offers that seemingly natural progression. I have seen tastes of this appearing in live electronic music in other styles with artists presenting their work in a set that can be altered on the spot and never heard the same way twice... tracks manipulated on the fly etc.

It would not be patronising or egotistical of the artist for that matter - as an artist you need to do whatever your creative instinct tells you to, especially if that means pushing boundaries...
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Re: digital music, albums, new paradigms in shareing music.

Post by youthful_implants »

I just think a good album should be diverse. In terms of melody, tempo and emotion.
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Re: digital music, albums, new paradigms in shareing music.

Post by DBoy »

:lol: I did write this in response to something YI wrote - then edited. Cheat.

I did frame my response in context of electronic music. There are very few electronic music albums which have risen to the level of the great albums of all time... But they operate in a different spectrum. Albums like What's Going On or Transformer are singer songwriter compositions.
Albums like Timesless or Blue Lines, maybe Hong Kong or Journey Inwards are classic electronic albums that do last the test of time, in my opinion, because despite stylistic movements and changes in genre fads, they remain great albums, from start to finish. And some of them could have possible been released as hour long peices of music with little production work. But this is just my taste and opinion I guess.
Cross over albums like My Bloody Valentine - Loveless, or big beats best like How to Operate with a Blown mind are different again. But I think for this conversation, and in respect to the topic so we don't end up just argueing about your taste versus the next bloke, probably easiest to stick to beats?
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Re: digital music, albums, new paradigms in shareing music.

Post by BEATS INC. »

Goldie - Timeless
An album which takes you on a journey from start to finish
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Re: digital music, albums, new paradigms in shareing music.

Post by youthful_implants »

DBoy wrote::lol: I did write this in response to something YI wrote - then edited. Cheat.

I did frame my response in context of electronic music. There are very few electronic music albums which have risen to the level of the great albums of all time... But they operate in a different spectrum. Albums like What's Going On or Transformer are singer songwriter compositions.
Albums like Timesless or Blue Lines, maybe Hong Kong or Journey Inwards are classic electronic albums that do last the test of time, in my opinion, because despite stylistic movements and changes in genre fads, they remain great albums, from start to finish. And some of them could have possible been released as hour long peices of music with little production work. But this is just my taste and opinion I guess.
Cross over albums like My Bloody Valentine - Loveless, or big beats best like How to Operate with a Blown mind are different again. But I think for this conversation, and in respect to the topic so we don't end up just argueing about your taste versus the next bloke, probably easiest to stick to beats?
sorry mate I was in a filthy mood this morning.
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Re: digital music, albums, new paradigms in shareing music.

Post by flippo »

yeah, I agree D-boy, few electronic albums have either cohesiveness and timelessness that more traditional music does on their own as albums. Probably comes down to the motivations and context that music is written in. If you're in a rock band your goal is to a) write an album, and b) have a live show consisting of all originals. From the get go the tracks are composed in a holistic manner. Most electronica is targeted as singles and DJs, so that mindset isn't usually there to begin with. Even the listener perspective, as a producer you can get some attention with only one or two tracks in the public eye, but for other types of music generally you need a live show or album before you have your stripes (outside of marketed-pop or the odd novelty tune). In dance and much electronica, the holistic presentation of the tunes is usually the responsibility of the DJ. Result is equally enjoyable and valid, but not specifically what I'm talking about here.

I guess for the purpose of this discussion on this forum I am talking about electronic albums (and non-electronic) that fit into the category that you talking about, D-boy. Stuff that is purchased as individual mp3s, but has been written in the 'album' mindset; Goldies - timeless, roni size - New Forms, Autechre - amber (most autechre, actually), Burial perhaps, most of the warp catalogue imo, deepchord. I consider myself a music lover, I really love to listen to albums start to finish - but I'm still concious that digital music and how it's changed my listening behaviour has resulted in bad listening habits. I notice with many other people this is even worse. I notice with many friends, the only time they happen to sit through a whole album is if they happen to drive a car that doesn't yet have Ipod connectivity. (Having said that, for the right kind of music a random playlist can be great fun.)

Think of it this way, if you were a DJ and you did a mix CD, like a fabric live for example, and the tracks were available cut up as individual tunes, people were buying say half or less of the tracks individually, or they were just getting jumbled around on an Ipod, it would be irritating and defeat the purpose significantly. I think that happens with many albums these days, I think it's changed the way people listen to music and I think that for all the pros that the digital medium offers this is something that is a shame. I'm interested in new ways to present music to people that avoids these problems and either still fits in with how people purchase, store and listen to music, or perhaps totally left-of-center ways of sharing music.
Last edited by flippo on Wed Jul 21, 2010 1:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: digital music, albums, new paradigms in shareing music.

Post by flippo »

unsoundbwoy wrote: and i definitely think that the 1930-1990s concept of labels and owning music and all that is changing,
both as a distribution method and as cultural practise, the way we create has in a more obvious way
shifted back to an evolving and collaborative process, sampling, remix culture, versioning, youtube, etc
as per usual i think wanyeandwax nailed it with his songs as shared things post

going back to roots and adding computers imo
you're right. Music used to be much more public-domain. Folk music, people sitting around a piano playing sheet music or just from ear, drum circles (tehe), 'riddims'.

I think I'm too much of a fascists with my own work to completely adopt that paradigm :(

I'll check out that blog when I get back this arvo.
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Post by David Bass »

BEATS INC. wrote:Goldie - Timeless
An album which takes you on a journey from start to finish
im listening to it now. love it to bits.
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Re: digital music, albums, new paradigms in shareing music.

Post by flippo »

flippo wrote:
unsoundbwoy wrote: and i definitely think that the 1930-1990s concept of labels and owning music and all that is changing,
both as a distribution method and as cultural practise, the way we create has in a more obvious way
shifted back to an evolving and collaborative process, sampling, remix culture, versioning, youtube, etc
as per usual i think wanyeandwax nailed it with his songs as shared things post

going back to roots and adding computers imo
you're right. Music used to be much more public-domain. Folk music, people sitting around a piano playing sheet music or just from ear, drum circles (tehe), 'riddims'.

I think I'm too much of a fascists with my own work to completely adopt that paradigm :(

I'll check out that blog when I get back this arvo.


Watch the posted video on YouTube.

<kinda related.

Bloke going around sampleing video/audio of many different buskers in the street, cutting up samples and making a beat with them via MPC. He then goes out into the street himself with a mini PA and a projector and re-busks so to speak. heh.
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Re: digital music, albums, new paradigms in shareing music.

Post by fooishbar »

flippo wrote:Interestingly, people seem more than happy to sit through an hour long mp3 of a podcast. With that in mind, do you think you would be open to the idea of an album that was packaged as one long mp3 in digital format, with the view of encouraging a 'proper' listen? Or does the idea seem patronising to you at all?
what, you mean a mix? :teef:

seriously though it's a pretty good point, i don't think you'll get people away from individual tunes any time soon, but maybe releasing a mix/podcast-style thingo of all/most of the album tracks with the album itself is the goer? do it up right, get some artwork in the mp3, that kinda ting.
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Post by fooishbar »

youthful_implants wrote:I must admit I listen to fewer and fewer DJ mixes. The problem with 99% of dance music is its dynamically one dimensional. Not enough contrast or light and shade.
stop listening to breaks then :teef:
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Post by youthful_implants »

fooishbar wrote:
youthful_implants wrote:I must admit I listen to fewer and fewer DJ mixes. The problem with 99% of dance music is its dynamically one dimensional. Not enough contrast or light and shade.
stop listening to breaks then :teef:
lol nice try. ;)
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Re: digital music, albums, new paradigms in shareing music.

Post by nic »

goog convo. i havent much to add as im really busy at work, one of those days you are so unbusy you are paralysed and have had go a lunchtime bifta.

i generally listen mostly to mixes, then singles i have bought (arranged into somekind of playlist that i endlessly rearrange - then do a mix) then lastly albums.

when im listening to albums its generally hiphop as most 'electronic' albums leave me cold and seem like souless contraptions made with fucken massive intros and ghey drops you see a mile away.

however Mt Kimbie - Crooks and Lovers is a good example of a recent album of electronic music that seems like it will hold up repeated listens. been on repeat for a few days now, really enjoy listening right through.
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Post by manofunreal »

Agreed on Mount Kimbie
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Re: digital music, albums, new paradigms in shareing music.

Post by quiet roar »

flippo wrote:How many of you still sit and listen to an album in its entirety, in the order as intended by the artists?
I do, but then, I am an old fart who hates the whole download approach to buying music.

How else are you supposed get to know those tunes that take a while to love?
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