stereo

flippo · Post by **flippo** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:26 am

To what extent do you guys use stereo?

Today at work I had my laptop pluged into an old stereo in the Microphone socket, so I was only getting one channel out. One thing I noticed is most electornic music sounded very similar with just the left channel, but alot of 'live' music, rock songs and whatnot, sounded pretty ordinary. E.G. Missing an entire guitar or piano, which in some instances appears change the whole key of the song. Led me to think that maybe stereo isn't used in dance music to the extent it is in rock. ?? I know that it's something my novice ass forgets about when im slapping something together.

any techniques or particular tricks you use for stereo? In particular drums, precussion sound so much nicer and the track sounds alot fuller when the elements are spread across the spectrum IMO, it's stimulating or something.

I guess rock natural has a stereo element there, with the band memebers spaces out on a stage, maybe stereo does not work well in a DJ/club situation?

Post by **JAMESSSS** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 10:43 am

When i do drums i pan everything but the main kick and the main snare a little.

So much better

motske · Post by **motske** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 11:34 am

yea i agree, panning can help, although in a club isn't true stereo pretty hard to come by? it would be interesting to hear a tune in a club that has mono drums, and then the same tune with more panning... anyone tried this??

unsoundbwoy · Post by **unsoundbwoy** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:21 pm

depends on what your goal is, panning can be an easy way out of bad eqing and can give a bit of interest but will it sound good on vinyl? will it be noticed in a club setting? i think regardless of whether you think anything is gonna end up on record or not its still important to think about it that way. nothing in the bass or sub bass should ever get panned. might go find a couple of links that back up my opinions and get back to you in next couple of days

Post by **JAMESSSS** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:25 pm

I'm talking tiny bits of Eqing, not hard pans here btw.

Direkt · Post by **Direkt** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 2:37 pm

Extreme panning like a 'rock' recording (check Beatles' Sgt. Peppers album) for club music is a bad idea IMO.

Imagine being at the Hi-Fi in front of the left or right stack and only hearing half of the music - it would be shithouse! If you were standing dead centre it might be kinda cool - but not everyone is dead centre, so the point is moot.

deviant · Post by **deviant** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 3:21 pm

^^^ bollocks.. Sorry mate but that doesn't have a bearing really... the music is listened to in many more situations than shows at the hifi.. Some clubs have excellent stereo seperation (if they are set up properly). People also listen to stuff at home and with headphones etc. Some of my favourite parts of tracks have mad arse panning effects. Maybe not things like all the drums in one side for a whole track (like the beatles) but I don't think that was ever a good idea was it?

unsoundbwoy · Post by **unsoundbwoy** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 3:31 pm

thats using panning for a deliberate/extreme effect which is a different thing than using stereo positioning to fill out a mix
flippo, i think that there's no real rule, it depends on which instrument, whether its a mono or stereo sample, mic placement, and how you go about panning it. remember its not just left right hard soft, there is also stereo delay and reverb, or a combination. imo mono is safest for most things, esp drums. when using stereo keep bouncing it down to mono to make sure its all going okay and fix up any problems as they arise

Direkt · Post by **Direkt** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 3:42 pm

deviant wrote:^^^ bollocks.. Sorry mate but that doesn't have a bearing really... the music is listened to in many more situations than shows at the hifi.. Some clubs have excellent stereo seperation (if they are set up properly). People also listen to stuff at home and with headphones etc. Some of my favourite parts of tracks have mad arse panning effects. Maybe not things like all the drums in one side for a whole track (like the beatles) but I don't think that was ever a good idea was it?

No it wasn't ever a good idea - and that was my point. I am aware that the Hi-Fi is not the only place in the world that you can listen to music - it was merely used to illustrate my point. Panning for effect is a lot different than just flat-panning instruments. The original post by Flippo - says that some instruments were completely panned to either the right or left channel - and I quote: "E.G. Missing an entire guitar or piano, which in some instances appears change the whole key of the song".

That's what I was commenting on - full, 100% panning of main instruments/parts... so no, I don't believe what I said was 'bollocks' mate.

Post by **system** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 3:48 pm

everything, bar bass.

Spherix · Post by **Spherix** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:02 pm

bass and main kit mono

some hats/perks stereo, pads stereo

(for club)

deviant · Post by **deviant** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:21 pm

Direktor wrote:so no, I don't believe what I said was 'bollocks' mate.

yeah, sorry, sounds a bit harsh, I think I just like the word "bollocks"

Yeah, main insruments shouldn't be flat panned.

But there are always exceptions. Like, Soul Of Man - Kickback.... That tune has the vocals flat panned both left and right.... so each second word comes out of the right speaker only and each other word out o the left only. Sounds fuckin' awesome in a club.

Bass drum, snare, bass, etc shouldn't really be panned at all. But toms, hats, other cymbals, vox and synths can be moved (not flat panned) around the spectrum a little. As with EQing it can be used as a way of making the music sould "clearer" and seperating things a little.

Direkt · Post by **Direkt** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:28 pm

No worries mate. That 'Kickback' track sounds interesting, will have to check it out!

deviant · Post by **deviant** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:39 pm

^^ yeah, it's a weird one... I can't believe how punchy the vocals are considering they are actually whispers.

flippo · Post by **flippo** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 7:45 pm

unsoundbwoy wrote:thats using panning for a deliberate/extreme effect which is a different thing than using stereo positioning to fill out a mix
flippo, i think that there's no real rule, it depends on which instrument, whether its a mono or stereo sample, mic placement, and how you go about panning it. remember its not just left right hard soft, there is also stereo delay and reverb, or a combination. imo mono is safest for most things, esp drums. when using stereo keep bouncing it down to mono to make sure its all going okay and fix up any problems as they arise

oh course there are no rules

was just interested to see what everyone thinks. As for me, I don't really write stuff with any ambition for it to go beyond me bedroom or a mates computer, so I'm not really concerned with how it will translate to vinyl or a club.

flippo · Post by **flippo** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 7:46 pm

Spherix wrote:bass and main kit mono

some hats/perks stereo, pads stereo

(for club)

oh yeh for sure, Pads sound wicked with a nice spread.

flippo · Post by **flippo** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 7:48 pm

Direktor wrote:
deviant wrote:^^^ bollocks.. Sorry mate but that doesn't have a bearing really... the music is listened to in many more situations than shows at the hifi.. Some clubs have excellent stereo seperation (if they are set up properly). People also listen to stuff at home and with headphones etc. Some of my favourite parts of tracks have mad arse panning effects. Maybe not things like all the drums in one side for a whole track (like the beatles) but I don't think that was ever a good idea was it?
No it wasn't ever a good idea - and that was my point. I am aware that the Hi-Fi is not the only place in the world that you can listen to music - it was merely used to illustrate my point. Panning for effect is a lot different than just flat-panning instruments. The original post by Flippo - says that some instruments were completely panned to either the right or left channel - and I quote: "E.G. Missing an entire guitar or piano, which in some instances appears change the whole key of the song".

That's what I was commenting on - full, 100% panning of main instruments/parts... so no, I don't believe what I said was 'bollocks' mate.

yeh for sure. For a rock album that you are listening to at home, it sounds great though, if you have your stereo set up in a nice spot.

Cubist · Post by **Cubist** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 8:19 pm

Listen closely to your favourite tunes and see what techniques other producers employ.

Spherix · Post by **Spherix** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 10:57 pm

what does clipz do?

flippo · Post by **flippo** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 11:24 pm

dolby digital 5.1 I recon. You got your sub channel, front channel for cheadar, side channels for parmasan and mozerella, rear channels for kraft singels and those little baby bells.

strategem · Post by **strategem** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 11:44 pm

hard panning is not advisable but a little panning to create a sound stage is great. Pan as though you were mixing an electronic 'band'. Drums in the centre, maybe keys to the right, pads to the left and a roaming vocal? or Drums to the centre, bongos slightly left, guitars harder left, pads and cheesy euro horns to the right? You want to be able to play it back when you are writing and close your eyes, and see where the 'instruments' stand on a stage.
If you want to pan that is....
And unsoundbwoy is dead on, keep your bass and drums in the center if you plan on getting it pressed to vinyl, try to keep phase issues out. although these things will largely be corrected by the engineer doing your vinyl mastering.

Post by **JAMESSSS** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 9:39 am

I know some breaks producers think of the drum kit as if it were in front of them and pan tiny bits according to which wide of the hit the drum they are "playing" would be lcoated.

We are talking tiny bits tho.

motske · Post by **motske** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 12:19 pm

^ thats kinda clever jbs, i never thought of tryin that

the hardest thing ive done is trying to get the panning right for some heavy rock / metal tunes that me and a mate did.. I think i spent more time on panning shit than actually doing 'musical' stuff

Electronic music is sweet because panning isn' really needed to help the seperation of sounds i reckon...

a1studmuffin · Post by **a1studmuffin** » Thu May 31, 2007 10:21 pm

Personally, I think if you're writing dance music (dnb, breaks, electro, house, whatever), it's almost always best to keep the main elements of percussion (kick + snare) and the bassline in mono - at least in the low/mid frequencies. This will ensure that your beats punch through as loud as possible on a club rig, as every speaker in the room will be contributing the same amount of bass. Same goes for basslines obviously. No point having a kick/snare drum panned hard right so that half the speakers don't contribute - some club systems just play back in mono anyway. Of course you can use the stereo field more for less important things, like fills, reverb/delays etc. And you can afford to be a bit more creative in breakdowns - eg. take a listen to the bass in Kid Blue - Nothing To Lose during the breakdown compared to the main bassline when the drums are going. And you can always send some high mids/top from your mono drums or synths to another bus, and add some stereo width to them. You can get away with panning cymbals/hats too, although again anything extreme will sound weird. If you want to do an extreme pan on a mono signal, you can try panning the original source say hard right, then sending the same signal to another channel panned hard left but with a different EQ on it, eg rolling off a lot of the high frequencies, to make it sound a bit more natural.

For more "live" music like rock, folk etc it's better to add more spread to the sound to make it sound more like you're there watching the band play.

FoundationStepper · Post by **FoundationStepper** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 12:19 am

I have an excellent tune on vinyl that collapes when on a mono system

very sad, the voice must have an effect on it which puts it 180 degrees to itself when the l+r are mixed

always check your mono mixdown i guess, especially if you are getting pressed!!!

a1studmuffin · Post by **a1studmuffin** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 2:31 am

Totally.

I generally work in mono (ie. not panning anything) until the mixdown stage anyway. I won't go out of my way to remove stereo width from reverbs or delays or effects, and I won't do anything drastic like force the master bus to mono, but I purposefully won't position things around the stereo field until I've got everything EQ'd and working together in the center image. That way when you move bits and pieces out into the stereo field, it guarantees that there's plenty of space in the mix, and the whole thing should collapse into mono again without any problems.

saintberry · Post by **saintberry** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 11:04 am

Can't believe no one has mentioned Pink Floyd. They always have hefty panning in their mix and it adds to the feel of their tracks greatly IMO.

Its a cop out to say it won't work live... people do use it in that environment, and to great effect.

unsoundbwoy · Post by **unsoundbwoy** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 1:03 pm

saintberry wrote:Its a cop out to say it won't work live... people do use it in that environment, and to great effect.

depends on the sound system being used

Direkt · Post by **Direkt** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 1:51 pm

Funny that this thread has been resurrected from the dead, as I've been using heaps more panning lately - mainly due to the increased amounts of dub I've been listening to.

Other than what's already mentioned... I like setting say a snare 10-20% to the right channel, with it's delay running through the opposite channel (being left in this case)...
Even better is automating the panning of the sound or effect.... gives a lot more feel and presense to certain sounds, particularly with dub where there's soooo much space to work within.

FoundationStepper · Post by **FoundationStepper** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 1:53 pm

and working live is in the eye of the beholder - in this case an engineer in the one sweet spot - if they are pulling a good stereo mix that works only for them, and not the majority of the audience who are getting sound from only one stack....

well its a bit selfish really?

a1studmuffin · Post by **a1studmuffin** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 10:14 pm

Yeah, it all depends on the intent of the music really.