A message from DJ Shadow...

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DBoy
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A message from DJ Shadow...

Post by DBoy »

From his website...
http://djshadow.com/
WARNING: RAMBLING TIRADE FROM A 37-YEAR OLD TECHNOPHOBE BELOW

Well, here we are again, another year, another decade. Optimism about the future is tempered with a nagging sense that underlying factors causing most of the misery in the world still exist. Lucky, then, that I’m a musician and not a politician.

Specifically, when it comes to the wallet, everyone’s suffering…of that there can be no doubt. And what of the financial prospects for musicians and recording artists in the years to come? Shaky, at best. Unless you’re one of the grotesque ‘Idol’-type pop disasters in the top 5, you’re looking at getting a day job or finding other sources of income. Conventional wisdom amongst my peers has been remarkably short-sided over the last decade: “Yeah, CD sales are down, but all the money is in licensing.” Not anymore. “Yeah, licensing money is down, but the video game industry is killing it.” Less so these days, according to recent data. “Well, the real money is in touring.” Really? When was the last time you saw a ‘new,’ post-record company artist headline a major music festival? At this rate, we’ll be stuck with Coldplay for decades (no offense intended).

Time for a little straight talk, from one reasonably intelligent human being to YOU, the reasonably intelligent reader. As distasteful as it may sound, the fact is that so many of our heroes: Jimi Hendrix, John Coltrane, The Beatles, whoever you care to name; generated much of their best art in return for financial compensation. If you take away the compensation, guess what…the art stops. For example, how many young rap artists are grinding away these days in New York, trying to get a deal? Not too many, certainly compared to the ‘80s and ‘90s. There’s no allure, no pot at the end of the rainbow. People have been asking for years now, “Where’s the next Nas, the next Jay-Z?” Be prepared to keep waiting…and for music, overall, to keep sucking. Why? Because only bottom-of-the-barrel, embarrassing pop tripe generates enough income to feed the machine. Anything unproven or risky? Nobody’s going to bankroll that kind of ‘experiment.’

Let me be clear: I love music. I love the culture of music, making music, playing music, geeking out over music from the past and present. I love old record company stories, and the characters that inhabited it. In other words, I have learned to appreciate the merchants of commerce as well as the art. If you love movies or cars, chances are you can relate to what I’m describing. What would Hollywood be without the larger-than-life, audacious personalities behind the scenes? What would cars be like if there had never been Detroit?

Gone are the recording studios (including the historically important Plant down the road from me in Sausalito), the record shops, and the music magazines. Replaced by the oh-so-cynical, oh-so-corrosive AM talk radio of the new millennium, the Internet. But I’m not telling you anything you don’t already know. Chances are, you may have even been one of those majority who danced on the grave of the falling record companies, pointed to Radiohead giving their album away for free and said, “See, look, if they can do it, why can’t everyone else?” Slowly, I turn…

Every artist is entitled to their own price point, just as every consumer has a choice in what they purchase. Nobody puts a gun to someone’s head and says, “Hey, buy this Picasso for 20 million.” Likewise, if $9.99 is too much to spend for one of my albums, so be it, your choice. But if you’re holding your breath, waiting for me to boost my cool-quotient by giving my music away for free, it’s not going to happen. The fact is that I feel my music has value. You may disagree, and that’s fine. But I know how much energy I put into what I do, and how long it takes me to make something I’m satisfied with. Giving that away just feels wrong to me. It’s not about money per se; I can donate a large sum of money to charity and not think twice, but I won’t give my art away. I’d rather sell it to 100 people who value it as I do than give it away to 1000 who could care less. That’s MY choice.

I realize these are all unpopular subjects. Artists are never supposed to address their flock about such icky subjects as business and commerce. (By the way, and I hope it doesn’t sound disingenuous, but now would be a REALLY good time to express my undying THANKS for your support, which matters IMMENSELY in my ability to retain music as my primary endeavor. As a fan of others, I always used to wonder, “does this artist or group really care about whether I buy their stuff or not? Do they care that I go to their show?” YES, WE CARE!!!!! Now, more than ever). Most think that I should stop whining, grow up and embrace the Internet, become more active, tweet more, hype more, give more stuff away, etc, etc. Honestly, I’ve tried…and will keep trying. But the bottom line is that not every paradigm or system is right for everyone. We’ve all been told for years that the Internet is our Savior; it’s cool, youthful, hip, the solution to every problem, and if you aren’t joining a new networking site on a weekly basis, you’re a social pariah. Sorry…I just don’t feel that way. I’m old enough to know that when 99% of the population is marching lockstep in one direction, sometimes it’s wise to break rank and go the other way. Plus, I simply don’t like sitting in front of a computer screen all day.

I’m not saying that I don’t use the Internet on a regular basis; I do. And obviously I’m very proud of this site and its ability to support itself through the store. Honestly, I just think a large portion of the dialogue and content available online is an utter shit fest: a Pandora’s box of violence, neurosis, bad impulses, and bad intentions. It has become the “Super Horror Show” the Last Poets could never have dreamed of, like bad television on steroids and angel dust simultaneously. CL Smooth memorably called television “a schism…negative realism.” And much like the TV of the ‘60s and ‘70s, you will NEVER hear or read anything negative about the Internet ON the Internet. There’s too much money to be made, by someone somewhere (and hey, why ruffle the feathers of the goose that’s laying the golden egg, right?). 20 years from now, it will be interesting to see what hindsight reveals. I predict a flag on the time-line: when we moved closer to becoming a passionless, listless, hollowed-out society, one in which art and nature could no longer provide the psychological shock to the system required to endure another harrowing day of terror alerts and super-bugs. Music can only suggest sex and violence…the Internet provides both, full frontal and full strength, 24/7. Maximum dose.

Whatever…what will be will be. As long as I breathe, I’ll make music, love music, support music. I used to get in fights at school to defend my right to listen to rap, and I’ll fight on against any institution or prevailing thinking that seeks to dictate to me how and when the music I make is to be disseminated. If there’s 50 of you, or 100, or more out there willing to accept my right to choose, as I accept yours, then welcome aboard…you are my fan base. The rest of you that don’t, and want me to play someone else’s game…I wish you well. Let’s just leave the subject at that and call it what it is: a mutual misunderstanding.

Regardless, it’s going to be a hell of a year. I am working hard on new music, and hope to share some of it with you in the coming months (really!). I’m fully aware that there are many former fans that insist my best work is behind me. Well, respectfully, I disagree. It’s not easy walking the tightrope between artistic validity and financial solvency, but I stand behind all of the decisions I have made to date. What matters to me is that EVERYONE reading this knows that I take my career, my music, and my fans EXTREMELY SERIOUSLY. When I started in music 25 years ago, my mission was to provide an alternative, to expand the scope of choice available to music lovers like myself; and above all to demonstrate a willingness to go the extra mile and put the MAXIMUM EFFORT in EVERYTHING I DO, so that the bar continues to be raised, not lowered. Whether that manifests itself on stage, on record, or as a character in a video game, I honestly feel that I have given it my best, win or lose, and I’m proud of that. I have to believe that your continued support is a vote of confidence, which I take great comfort in as I strive to create some of my best work to date.

I may not be the best looking dude out there…I may not be the most linked-in, the most prolific, the most successful…but I’ll be god-damned if I’m not up there with the most passionate. If you agree with what I’m saying, that so much music we’re fed is utter GARBAGE that insults the intelligence, then no matter where you’re at…the States, the UK, France, Japan, Canada, Australia, wherever…we’re ALL outsiders, and we owe it to each other to band together and fight for something better. Personally, I’m loving the challenge, and when the time is right, I look forward to reconnecting with all of you.

Until then…

DJ Shadow
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Re: A message from DJ Shadow...

Post by deviant »

DBoy wrote:WARNING: RAMBLING TIRADE FROM A 37-YEAR OLD TECHNOPHOBE BELOW
I have read this and can safely say that you shouldn't bother reading past this part. It's the best part.
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Re: A message from DJ Shadow...

Post by mrj »

i second that.
He's climbing in your windows, he's snatching your people up.
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Re: A message from DJ Shadow...

Post by obliveus »

He hits the nail on the head in a lot of ways. Dont know if I agree 100%, but it's better than the Lars Ulrich approach.

:)
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Re: A message from DJ Shadow...

Post by autumnleaves »

When he stops sucking I'll start buying his albums again.

I don't really understand his point. Is it that art needs money to function properly, and that the internet is killing the business of music? I agree, art needs money, and if you like his music you should buy it, but to say that The Beatles and Jimi were all about the cash? Err.. no.. Yes, they got paid loads for it, too much, but they still would have made killer music if they didn't earn squillions.

The internet just filters out the shit. If I like an album, I'll buy it. If I don't I'll download it, listen, then delete it. Record companies are like travel agents, people are starting to realise that they are providing a middle-person service that is no longer necessary.

And if people aren't rapping as much any more because there's not a fat cheque at the end of it, then I say, adios and thanks for making the world a better place. You shouldn't have to be poor to be a musician, but you also damn well shouldn't need a million dollar salary to make it worth doing, and to say that people aren't playing music because of that, makes me think that these people don't really care about music and probably would be contributing to the pop bullshit that he is referring to if they did get a deal.
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Re: A message from DJ Shadow...

Post by Hardy »

Can someone sum up in ten words or less what it's about?
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Re: A message from DJ Shadow...

Post by autumnleaves »

Musicians need money.


I seriously don't know how he managed to ramble all that shit.
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Re: A message from DJ Shadow...

Post by JAMESSSS »

Hardy it pretty much turns out he is a big princess.
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Re: A message from DJ Shadow...

Post by mrj »

james synopsis is pretty close
He's climbing in your windows, he's snatching your people up.
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Re: A message from DJ Shadow...

Post by Hardy »

Fucking hell. Even Bono was having a sook about piracy this week. FUcking BONO!!!! How much money does that hipocrite cunt need? If he's having money problems, maybe he should start flying his hats econy rather than business class. Utter, utter twat.

I'm sure Shadow's not hard up for a buck either.
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Re: A message from DJ Shadow...

Post by deviant »

autumnleaves wrote:When he stops sucking I'll start buying his albums again.

I don't really understand his point. Is it that art needs money to function properly, and that the internet is killing the business of music? I agree, art needs money, and if you like his music you should buy it, but to say that The Beatles and Jimi were all about the cash? Err.. no.. Yes, they got paid loads for it, too much, but they still would have made killer music if they didn't earn squillions.

The internet just filters out the shit. If I like an album, I'll buy it. If I don't I'll download it, listen, then delete it. Record companies are like travel agents, people are starting to realise that they are providing a middle-person service that is no longer necessary.

And if people aren't rapping as much any more because there's not a fat cheque at the end of it, then I say, adios and thanks for making the world a better place. You shouldn't have to be poor to be a musician, but you also damn well shouldn't need a million dollar salary to make it worth doing, and to say that people aren't playing music because of that, makes me think that these people don't really care about music and probably would be contributing to the pop bullshit that he is referring to if they did get a deal.
WORD... OMG THE CULTURE IS CHANGING!!!!! MAKE IT STOP!!

:roll:

all art will survive no matter what, I believe that very strongly.
Hardy wrote:Can someone sum up in ten words or less what it's about?
read my first post ;)
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Re: A message from DJ Shadow...

Post by DBoy »

I would like to apologise to anyone whose time I have wasted by posting this.
I thought it may have been interesting to some, but in hindsight the fact that DJ Shadow ALMOST had an opinion is not really that interesting.

Go about your weekends in safety, knowing that stuff is about the same as it was this morning, just a little closer to the future.
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Re: A message from DJ Shadow...

Post by autumnleaves »

DBoy wrote:I would like to apologise to anyone whose time I have wasted by posting this.
I thought it may have been interesting to some, but in hindsight the fact that DJ Shadow ALMOST had an opinion is not really that interesting.

Go about your weekends in safety, knowing that stuff is about the same as it was this morning, just a little closer to the future.
Worth a read just to get more of an idea about this guy. Unfortunately what he said made no point whatsoever, and ended up sounding like a typical dickhead musician spiel "I'm still gonna keep it real, I'm fightin for my right to keep doin what I love, just me against the new system". You got it in one that he almost had an opinion.
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Re: A message from DJ Shadow...

Post by shepherd »

haven't read a diatribe like that on mb since, well ... since little evil got banned ;)




all jokes LE
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Re: A message from DJ Shadow...

Post by youthful_implants »

Hardy wrote:Fucking hell. Even Bono was having a sook about piracy this week. FUcking BONO!!!! How much money does that hipocrite cunt need? If he's having money problems, maybe he should start flying his hats econy rather than business class. Utter, utter twat.

I'm sure Shadow's not hard up for a buck either.
dude what is your problem?

these people complain about piracy because its their fucking livelihood at stake. if someone was withdrawing your wages from your bank account before you got to spend it, I think youd be pretty pissed off as well

its not just about money its also about honour, and if you think art and music should be free - you're an idiot.

like Shadow says by stealing media we resign ourselves to a future of bland, watered-down formulaic nonsense.

if EMI lose money on Coldplay sure Coldplay can probably survive, but what about the smaller artists on cooler labels that EMI bankrolls? Never mind the independents who can't afford to put out any music at all. Music dying? I think so.

If Hollywood lose 20 million on a movie sure Geoge Clooney will survive. But what about the smaller film companies doing cool stuff that gets shelved due to the loss at the top end. Again, the talent stifled and the idea is gone.

thanks DBoy I appreciate the posting, he's a legend in my eyes and like he said - times are hard.
Last edited by youthful_implants on Fri Jan 08, 2010 7:23 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: A message from DJ Shadow...

Post by youthful_implants »

deviant wrote:
all art will survive no matter what, I believe that very strongly.
sorry Dan I gotta disagree with you again.

a brilliant French philosopher Beaudrillard once said: "art does not die because there is no more good art, it dies because there is too much."

kind of prophetic really considering how disposable music and art now is thanks to the internet.
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Re: A message from DJ Shadow...

Post by Amick »

You can't hug an mp3...
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Re: A message from DJ Shadow...

Post by autumnleaves »

youthful_implants wrote:
deviant wrote:
all art will survive no matter what, I believe that very strongly.
sorry Dan I gotta disagree with you again.

a brilliant French philosopher Beaudrillard once said: "art does not die because there is no more good art, it dies because there is too much."

kind of prophetic really considering how disposable music and art now is thanks to the internet.
too much good art? or too much art? I don't really think it matters how many people are making shit or good music out there, as long as you can find what you like, and the internet makes that more possible than ever before.
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Re: A message from DJ Shadow...

Post by shepherd »

not sure whether i agree with shadow, but i am still not sold on the sentiment that music is 'healthier than ever' now thanks to the net.

one of the arguments with the 'liberation' of music is that 'people aren't forced to buy albums of stuff they don't want' ... which might be true ... but even with a la carte single song legal purchase the finances don't really work for anyone and in time this will affect output and choice. it doesn't work for labels. hell - it really wouldn't work for artists either. the only one it work for is apple etc as the revenue is incremental and new (compared to 5-10 years ago)

the same thing is happening with the Internet and google. Most publishers/content creators online are not breaking even let alone making profit, yet Google is making around $7b a year in profit ... so one group is getting rich off the back of everyone else. What this appears to be leading to is another media monopoly ... everything people seemed to want to avoid but have done a good job of creating. (be it through accident or intention)

right now there's loads of choice but under the current situation it cannot be sustained and something has to buckle relatively soon. what will happen then? music needs curation surely.

and when that happens, who is going to fund this endless plethora of choice many believe they are entitled to for free? the funds have to come from some sort of profitable business model ...
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Re: A message from DJ Shadow...

Post by Hardy »

autumnleaves wrote:
youthful_implants wrote:
deviant wrote:
all art will survive no matter what, I believe that very strongly.
sorry Dan I gotta disagree with you again.

a brilliant French philosopher Beaudrillard once said: "art does not die because there is no more good art, it dies because there is too much."

kind of prophetic really considering how disposable music and art now is thanks to the internet.
too much good art? or too much art? I don't really think it matters how many people are making shit or good music out there, as long as you can find what you like, and the internet makes that more possible than ever before.
Yeah I gotta agree with that. I also think that when we are flooded with tepid garbage, it forces and inspires people to go above and beyond and create something fantastic.
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Re: A message from DJ Shadow...

Post by DBoy »

Trying to draw a line between who makes the money out of art and how good the standard of art is at any point in time is a long stretch. Art is directly influenced by (and influences) culture, be it the middle of culture, the outskirts of culture, the history of culture or the future of culture. People are still going to be born with creativity and are still going to create - what they create, who for, who likes it (cause of course art standard is 100% subjective) and if they are wealthy is not going to change that art will exist and evolve.

In fact I would dare say that there has never been a period when artists of such varying standards have had access to make wealth from their disposition to creativity. In most cultures only a few of the best have been valued by society. In today's world a creative individual can make money from their gift in a huge amount of ways - sure most of it is economic slavery, but same with most skills. A little hardship will probably do music good...

btw - Shep, good to have your comments back on board, you on holidays or something? good stuff.
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Re: A message from DJ Shadow...

Post by quiet roar »

deviant wrote:all art will survive no matter what
I'm not really sure what that is supposed to mean, Dan: Art will always be around, yes, but the "art" thing can be nurtured or impeded by environments, and I think that's what Shadow is trying to say.
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Re: A message from DJ Shadow...

Post by C.I.A. »

Props to him for having a bit of a girlie whinge. Poor thing. Probably going through a bit of a mid-life crisis and realising that the only constant is change.

Cup of tea with Bono would do him a world of good; at least then he could have a 'woe is me' moment about something slightly more pertinent (e.g. no fish in the ocean by 2050).

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Re: A message from DJ Shadow...

Post by deviant »

quiet roar wrote:
deviant wrote:all art will survive no matter what
I'm not really sure what that is supposed to mean, Dan: Art will always be around, yes, but the "art" thing can be nurtured or impeded by environments, and I think that's what Shadow is trying to say.
Sometimes it's the limitations of the environment that spawn the best art! Do you think the blues came from a nurturing society?
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Re: A message from DJ Shadow...

Post by almax »

deviant wrote:
quiet roar wrote:
deviant wrote:all art will survive no matter what
I'm not really sure what that is supposed to mean, Dan: Art will always be around, yes, but the "art" thing can be nurtured or impeded by environments, and I think that's what Shadow is trying to say.
Sometimes it's the limitations of the environment that spawn the best art! Do you think the blues came from a nurturing society?
BOOM!

game over
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Re: A message from DJ Shadow...

Post by quiet roar »

deviant wrote:Sometimes it's the limitations of the environment that spawn the best art! Do you think the blues came from a nurturing society?
Good point but the key word there is "sometimes" - it can also have the opposite effect.

Honestly, I am not sure what the overall outcome of this "internet thingy" will be, and I agree, Shadow is being a bit of a princess, but I don't think you can completely dismiss all concerns.
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Re: A message from DJ Shadow...

Post by Expert Knob Twiddler »

Hardy wrote:Can someone sum up in ten words or less what it's about?
:smt005

I got lost after 2 sentences!
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Re: A message from DJ Shadow...

Post by youthful_implants »

Hardy wrote:
Yeah I gotta agree with that. I also think that when we are flooded with tepid garbage, it forces and inspires people to go above and beyond and create something fantastic.
LOL you couldn't be further from the truth. Why would tepid garbage inspire anyone?

The opposite is in fact the case, which means that good music inspires people to write good or even better music.

Shit music doesn't inspire anyone and makes everyone think that half-arsed, half-baked songs are desirable - which they're not.

I'm sick of people who think the internet is wonderful and faultless and dont seem to understand the long-term social implications and how negative and damaging a lot of that is.

Nearly everything Shadow says is true, its not even a whinge, its fact. And that's coming from someone who's successful, which makes it quite clear how hard everyone else is struggling.
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Re: A message from DJ Shadow...

Post by youthful_implants »

deviant wrote:
quiet roar wrote:
deviant wrote:all art will survive no matter what
I'm not really sure what that is supposed to mean, Dan: Art will always be around, yes, but the "art" thing can be nurtured or impeded by environments, and I think that's what Shadow is trying to say.
Sometimes it's the limitations of the environment that spawn the best art! Do you think the blues came from a nurturing society?
thats a convenient but completely inaccurate comment.

how much of a disservice are you paying those musicians who are brilliant?

you're basically saying they were only good because they had it tough, which is unfair and wrong.

they were good, because they were good. ;)

hard times have spawned a lot of good art and music. so have good times.

blues comes from a rich and vibrant tradition and culture of using jazz music to escape. Escape poverty, and depression.

Not escaping the internet, or too much porn.

Maybe why a lot of music is vaccuous and devoid of meaning now, is because life is so fucking easy lol.
Last edited by youthful_implants on Sun Jan 10, 2010 2:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: A message from DJ Shadow...

Post by Direkt »

youthful_implants wrote: these people complain about piracy because its their fucking livelihood at stake. if someone was withdrawing your wages from your bank account before you got to spend it, I think youd be pretty pissed off as well

its not just about money its also about honour, and if you think art and music should be free - you're an idiot.

like Shadow says by stealing media we resign ourselves to a future of bland, watered-down formulaic nonsense.

if EMI lose money on Coldplay sure Coldplay can probably survive, but what about the smaller artists on cooler labels that EMI bankrolls? Never mind the independents who can't afford to put out any music at all. Music dying? I think so.

If Hollywood lose 20 million on a movie sure Geoge Clooney will survive. But what about the smaller film companies doing cool stuff that gets shelved due to the loss at the top end. Again, the talent stifled and the idea is gone.

thanks DBoy I appreciate the posting, he's a legend in my eyes and like he said - times are hard.
:scr1pt:
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Re: A message from DJ Shadow...

Post by Andrez »

shepherd wrote:not sure whether i agree with shadow, but i am still not sold on the sentiment that music is 'healthier than ever' now thanks to the net.

one of the arguments with the 'liberation' of music is that 'people aren't forced to buy albums of stuff they don't want' ... which might be true ... but even with a la carte single song legal purchase the finances don't really work for anyone and in time this will affect output and choice. it doesn't work for labels. hell - it really wouldn't work for artists either. the only one it work for is apple etc as the revenue is incremental and new (compared to 5-10 years ago)

the same thing is happening with the Internet and google. Most publishers/content creators online are not breaking even let alone making profit, yet Google is making around $7b a year in profit ... so one group is getting rich off the back of everyone else. What this appears to be leading to is another media monopoly ... everything people seemed to want to avoid but have done a good job of creating. (be it through accident or intention)

right now there's loads of choice but under the current situation it cannot be sustained and something has to buckle relatively soon. what will happen then? music needs curation surely.

and when that happens, who is going to fund this endless plethora of choice many believe they are entitled to for free? the funds have to come from some sort of profitable business model ...
Wise words, Ben.
Totally agree with you here.
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Re: A message from DJ Shadow...

Post by Kaiproject »

Direkt wrote:
youthful_implants wrote: these people complain about piracy because its their fucking livelihood at stake. if someone was withdrawing your wages from your bank account before you got to spend it, I think youd be pretty pissed off as well

its not just about money its also about honour, and if you think art and music should be free - you're an idiot.

like Shadow says by stealing media we resign ourselves to a future of bland, watered-down formulaic nonsense.

if EMI lose money on Coldplay sure Coldplay can probably survive, but what about the smaller artists on cooler labels that EMI bankrolls? Never mind the independents who can't afford to put out any music at all. Music dying? I think so.

If Hollywood lose 20 million on a movie sure Geoge Clooney will survive. But what about the smaller film companies doing cool stuff that gets shelved due to the loss at the top end. Again, the talent stifled and the idea is gone.

thanks DBoy I appreciate the posting, he's a legend in my eyes and like he said - times are hard.
:scr1pt:
:scr1pt: :scr1pt:
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Re: A message from DJ Shadow...

Post by autumnleaves »

youthful_implants wrote:
Hardy wrote:Fucking hell. Even Bono was having a sook about piracy this week. FUcking BONO!!!! How much money does that hipocrite cunt need? If he's having money problems, maybe he should start flying his hats econy rather than business class. Utter, utter twat.

I'm sure Shadow's not hard up for a buck either.
dude what is your problem?

these people complain about piracy because its their fucking livelihood at stake. if someone was withdrawing your wages from your bank account before you got to spend it, I think youd be pretty pissed off as well

its not just about money its also about honour, and if you think art and music should be free - you're an idiot.

like Shadow says by stealing media we resign ourselves to a future of bland, watered-down formulaic nonsense.

if EMI lose money on Coldplay sure Coldplay can probably survive, but what about the smaller artists on cooler labels that EMI bankrolls? Never mind the independents who can't afford to put out any music at all. Music dying? I think so.

If Hollywood lose 20 million on a movie sure Geoge Clooney will survive. But what about the smaller film companies doing cool stuff that gets shelved due to the loss at the top end. Again, the talent stifled and the idea is gone.

thanks DBoy I appreciate the posting, he's a legend in my eyes and like he said - times are hard.
I don't think we can thank the record companies for boundary-pushing music. Record companies usually jump on the bandwagon once an artist has proven their value through their own hard work and getting a name out there, which nowadays, is done via the internet mostly. ie, once they're a sure bet. It's independents that take the risks, and get the good shit out there to begin with by bankrolling new talent. What do you mean indies can't afford to put music out? Sure, they can't spend shitloads on advertising, but if they pick the artist well they can make a profit.

Music shouldn't be free, everyone should buy the music they like, but I'm also not losing any sleep over missing the next Nas or Jay-Z because the potential huge pay packet that record companies shell out has shrunk. The people who are in it for the music will still do it the traditional way, working their asses off playing gigs, getting signed to an independent, and either getting a following and staying on the independent, or deciding to take the bigger pay packet and move to a big label. The internet allows people to avoid HAVING to move to a huge label to get the advertising they need, because word of mouth is so much stronger thanks to the internet.

Piracy is fucked because for people on indies, or just starting out, it's the difference between doing it full time or not, or even going on the dole or not. It's still unfair on big name artists, but most won't feel the pinch. My conclusion: buy all music that you like, especially if it can contribute to the difference between facilitating a lifestyle that allows the musician to devote more time to music, it assures the musician a lifestyle they want, and increases the chance of them producing good new music in the future for us all to enjoy.
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Re: A message from DJ Shadow...

Post by deviant »

youthful_implants wrote:
deviant wrote:Sometimes it's the limitations of the environment that spawn the best art! Do you think the blues came from a nurturing society?
thats a convenient but completely inaccurate comment.

how much of a disservice are you paying those musicians who are brilliant?

you're basically saying they were only good because they had it tough, which is unfair and wrong.

they were good, because they were good. ;)

hard times have spawned a lot of good art and music. so have good times.

blues comes from a rich and vibrant tradition and culture of using jazz music to escape. Escape poverty, and depression.

Not escaping the internet, or too much porn.

Maybe why a lot of music is vaccuous and devoid of meaning now, is because life is so fucking easy lol.
I have no idea what you're on about :?

I totally agree that the free music/internet generation has spawned a whole heap of absolute bollocks, music wise. But that's not my point. Some people are not going to benefit from this new style of music culture, mainly those who can't move with the times... (for the record, I'm NOT talking about piracy here). I get the feeling that you think I'm trying to justify stealing music (which I don't do btw), that's not it at all.

I'm just saying that you can't really stop other people (in this current climate) from taking music. I download movies for free which I guess is just as bad, but I don't have an allegence to the film industry, so I don't really care.... Am I a hipocrite?? probably, actually definitely... My point is that things are the way they are.. The way things are is not going to benefit everyone all the time. No Big Deal.. The taking money from your wages analogy is flawed...

so, shadow is not going to make as much money because radiohead gave their album away for free... boo hoo imo

entitled to his own price point??? ENTITLED TO WHAT? fuck me :roll:

That's like some exec at a company that makes pens and trying to sell them for double what other pens are going for and then not only sticking to your "price point" because of honour and "entitlement" but also whining about the fact they aren't selling anymore in front of everyone..... not much honour in that tbh

If shadow really wants to be honourable he should stick to what he does best. Make some kickarse music, tour your head off etc etc... Why use the internet (and a blog none the less) to rant about how much you hate blogs and the internet??

It just means you aren't going to be able to keep plugging away comfortably in the way you always have... BIG DEAL
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Re: A message from DJ Shadow...

Post by apophenian »

deviant wrote: I download movies for free which I guess is just as bad, but I don't have an allegence to the film industry, so I don't really care....
What about your mate who works in the film industry? :P
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Re: A message from DJ Shadow...

Post by gnat »

excellent thread. yay for old style mb discussion. way overdue. nice one dboy

i buy tunes still! feel like the one of the only people in melbs but i do- and not even off i tunes. the internet for me makes it easy in that i listen online and see if i like it pre buying it. but i still hit jb regularly with a skip in my step

this argument is not going to be won by moral music crusaders though- i've argued with my mates about it feverishly in the past to no avail- they still download tunes

the internet is not going anywhere. there's money still to be made with gigging i guess?

so josh. MAKE YOUR GIGS GOOD AGAIN and they will come
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Re: A message from DJ Shadow...

Post by almax »

You can't stop the internet.
I am very fond of the internet. It holds a very special place in my heart, and I spend hours and hours every day on it. It's a living, breathing information pipeline, and it swallows up the conventional notions of capitalism and takes you in it's wake leaving you with 2 options: adapt, or be left behind.
You're never going to stop free downloads, but if we all put forth an ethic, an agreement to support artists if you can afford to, everything will be ok.
The broke people that download stuff for free weren't going to buy it if that option wasn't available. By getting it for free they can enjoy it and become fans.
When they are fans they will eventually support the artwork by purchasing it if they can.
The people that have plenty of money but still don't want to give any of it away to an artist they appreciate are cunts, and you have to just acknowledge that there's always going to be a certain percentage of them out there, and just accept that fact and move on.

Musicians and comics have one thing going for them; they perform live. The downloaded shit that people get off the internet is just an advertisement for them to see them live. If you like it, you'll hopefully enjoy it way more live with your friends as you share a special night out with them and feel the vibes of the crowd, get drunk/high etc whatever.

The ultimate motivation for any artist should never be money, it should be the art. Everything else takes care of itself if you honor the agreement between the artist and the fan: The artists appreciate you, and they write and perform this for your (consumer) enjoyment. When you enjoy it, it makes it all worth while for the artist. When you enjoy it you become a fan, and that is how the artist supports themself.
What artists "lose" in lost revenue for a performer because of "illegal" downloads you gain ten fold in free publicity and advertising.

That said, I think it's different for the movie business. For them piracy is a serious deal, because the movie is the entire product. It's not like they're going to do an Avatar live show. That digital copy that you download is the whole product, and many people (myself included) enjoy movies in the privacy of their own home as much if not more than seeing them in a theater full of strangers with the looming possibility of the experience being ruined by some fuck head that can't shut up while other people are enjoying the film.
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Re: A message from DJ Shadow...

Post by deviant »

apophenian wrote:
deviant wrote: I download movies for free which I guess is just as bad, but I don't have an allegence to the film industry, so I don't really care....
What about your mate who works in the film industry? :P
yeah, true... I really need to ween myself off my steady diet of pirated films :-/

the quality is generally shit too... and I do have a full HD set up at home...
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Re: A message from DJ Shadow...

Post by shepherd »

one of the greatest myths of the last few years is the success of radioheads 'internet' album - the reality is/was it wasn't much more than wise promo.

1/ it was released in stores, using traditional channels and distro at a price shortly after
2/ by a record label
3/ radiohead had 13 years of massive EMI/Parlophone budgets which established them as a band (as well as great music)
4/ how much revenue did they really make?

anyway - to cut a long story short ... radiohead could do this. they're a big band with loads of cash flow with the ability to not need money to support themselves. they can run an experiment - lose money (millions even) and it doesn't matter as they come from such a comfortable place.

I am still waiting for the first REAL net only, no record company, big musical success ... WHO ISN'T ALREADY AN ESTABLISHED ACT BUILT BY THE OLD MUSIC MODEL. and don't say acts like Lily allen/Arctic Monkeys/Short Stack etc ... they were all made big by labels.

All we have now is an era of abundance ... and with that comes commoditisation (in a macro sense) and with that comes lower prices or people not even paying. Most don't assign the same value to data that they do to things that are tangible.

Feels to me the model has changed to having real emphasis on live performance - ie things that are scarce and are finite. This seems to be healthier than ever and potentially worth more (especially for live music) for those involved ... but I still think this depends on great marketing to an extent (ie POS, videos, trade, large scale ATL advertising) and these things can't exist without labels.

On top of this, I think there's a gross misunderstanding from most around the margins and revenue of record labels ... do the math on a high selling piece of music, it's not a massive cash cow and hasn't been for a long long time. Look at the current top 40 albums, look at the sales, look at an album unit price (maybe $13 if that) and work out the revenue on a 'platinum selling' piece of product ... maybe $1m maybe less. Gold = less than $500,000 in revenue. And that's pre-expenses ... ie manufacture, production, videos, A&R.

And that's for artists that do 'break' ... what about the 80-90% that don't ...
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Re: A message from DJ Shadow...

Post by almax »

shepherd wrote:
I am still waiting for the first REAL net only, no record company, big musical success ... WHO ISN'T ALREADY AN ESTABLISHED ACT BUILT BY THE OLD MUSIC MODEL. and don't say acts like Lily allen/Arctic Monkeys/Short Stack etc ... they were all made big by labels.
Fat Freddys Drop are doing pretty fuckin well, they are 100% on their own label
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Re: A message from DJ Shadow...

Post by shepherd »

almax should have clarified - i meant more big big acts, ie 3-10m in sales - i wouldn't call FFD a big act in that regard but yeah i am sure they are doing well with live shows/records etc
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Re: A message from DJ Shadow...

Post by spiral »

i think most of his points are valid but the future of media is instant streaming
just got back from uk and IMO BBC iplayer and spotify are the way media is going and for the most part they are awesome
owning things is going to fade away and musicians are going to be earning pennies for streams
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Re: A message from DJ Shadow...

Post by almax »

shepherd wrote:almax should have clarified - i meant more big big acts, ie 3-10m in sales - i wouldn't call FFD a big act in that regard but yeah i am sure they are doing well with live shows/records etc
but maybe thats just the model that is required now, use the recorded stuff as a promo and tour your ass off, they have a 7 piece band and im pretty sure they would be getting about $10,000 each a show by the size of the venues they are playing. Play 100 show a year and your a millionaire so the carrot is still there, the game has just evolved.

And in terms of records sold, they probably haven't sold millions, but the revenue they receive for each record sold isn't getting diluted by record company big wigs and advertising etc.
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Re: A message from DJ Shadow...

Post by youthful_implants »

autumnleaves wrote:
I don't think we can thank the record companies for boundary-pushing music. .
where else does music come from, if not from record labels? does it just materialise out of thin air? :shock:

artists dont have the time to be promoting themselves, releasing all their own music and deal with making it as well.

thats why we have a thing called a record company that takes care of all that for the artists.

its not an evil, out-dated or corrupt institution - its a very real and workable way to manage artists and sell music.
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Re: A message from DJ Shadow...

Post by youthful_implants »

deviant wrote:
youthful_implants wrote:
deviant wrote:Sometimes it's the limitations of the environment that spawn the best art! Do you think the blues came from a nurturing society?
thats a convenient but completely inaccurate comment.

how much of a disservice are you paying those musicians who are brilliant?

you're basically saying they were only good because they had it tough, which is unfair and wrong.

they were good, because they were good. ;)

hard times have spawned a lot of good art and music. so have good times.

blues comes from a rich and vibrant tradition and culture of using jazz music to escape. Escape poverty, and depression.

Not escaping the internet, or too much porn.

Maybe why a lot of music is vaccuous and devoid of meaning now, is because life is so fucking easy lol.
I have no idea what you're on about :?

I totally agree that the free music/internet generation has spawned a whole heap of absolute bollocks, music wise. But that's not my point. Some people are not going to benefit from this new style of music culture, mainly those who can't move with the times... (for the record, I'm NOT talking about piracy here). I get the feeling that you think I'm trying to justify stealing music (which I don't do btw), that's not it at all.

I'm just saying that you can't really stop other people (in this current climate) from taking music. I download movies for free which I guess is just as bad, but I don't have an allegence to the film industry, so I don't really care.... Am I a hipocrite?? probably, actually definitely... My point is that things are the way they are.. The way things are is not going to benefit everyone all the time. No Big Deal.. The taking money from your wages analogy is flawed...

so, shadow is not going to make as much money because radiohead gave their album away for free... boo hoo imo

entitled to his own price point??? ENTITLED TO WHAT? fuck me :roll:

That's like some exec at a company that makes pens and trying to sell them for double what other pens are going for and then not only sticking to your "price point" because of honour and "entitlement" but also whining about the fact they aren't selling anymore in front of everyone..... not much honour in that tbh

If shadow really wants to be honourable he should stick to what he does best. Make some kickarse music, tour your head off etc etc... Why use the internet (and a blog none the less) to rant about how much you hate blogs and the internet??

It just means you aren't going to be able to keep plugging away comfortably in the way you always have... BIG DEAL
Why shouldn't he use the internet to rant, like every other fucker in the known universe?

Why shouldn't he be upset people steal his music, or feel entitled to its value?

Graphic Designers charge fees for their work, their fees vary but they have developed a price for their work.

When you DJ you don't say 'pay me what you think I'm worth, you say THIS IS MY FEE.'

So he's quite entitled to put a price on his own music IMO.

The people who are going to benefit from this music and internet explosion are NOT THE ARTISTS AT ALL.

its the millions of micro-internet labels that rip them off, dont master the music properly and do very little to promote their artists.

People who are going to benefit from this music and internet explosion are THE CUNTS STEALING ALL THE MUSIC AND SHARING IT.

so you see the artists are really up against it. no one likes doing shit for free, NO ONE.

People talk about adapting and moving on rather glibly, but the fact is, and anyone who sells music will tell you the same - there is nothing to adapt to. There is no miracle business model to make it all good again, piracy has fucked the industry in the arse.

None of them are tried or tested, apart from iTunes, Beatport and other large-scale online shops.

People talk about Spotify and yay for streaming but honestly what a fuckin pain in the arse and frankly the royalties paid to smaller artists will be next to non-existent so what we have AGAIN is a music model for users but not for musicians.
Last edited by youthful_implants on Mon Jan 11, 2010 1:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: A message from DJ Shadow...

Post by almax »

youthful_implants wrote:
so you see the artists are really up against it. no one likes doing shit for free, NO ONE.
What about Graffitti Artists?
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Re: A message from DJ Shadow...

Post by youthful_implants »

almax wrote:
youthful_implants wrote:
so you see the artists are really up against it. no one likes doing shit for free, NO ONE.
What about Graffitti Artists?
what about them? :smt006
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Re: A message from DJ Shadow...

Post by shepherd »

almax wrote:
shepherd wrote:almax should have clarified - i meant more big big acts, ie 3-10m in sales - i wouldn't call FFD a big act in that regard but yeah i am sure they are doing well with live shows/records etc
but maybe thats just the model that is required now, use the recorded stuff as a promo and tour your ass off, they have a 7 piece band and im pretty sure they would be getting about $10,000 each a show by the size of the venues they are playing. Play 100 show a year and your a millionaire so the carrot is still there, the game has just evolved.

And in terms of records sold, they probably haven't sold millions, but the revenue they receive for each record sold isn't getting diluted by record company big wigs and advertising etc.
absolutely agree - for bands the size of FFD it's a great channel if used correctly. As a band they seem genuinely self sufficient so for them eliminating middle men is great financially - and allows them to maintain artistic control.

However - they're a rarity I'd say ... a band who have the skill/discipline to keep their commercials in check. Most bands drown in even the most basic commercial arrangement - ie a booking contract. They don't have the training/resource to handle it.

I know of a few AU bands who are making $0 off their record deals and licencing/royalties but making $1m+ off merch and live performance. That is great for them - as they control these areas and also have the luxury of a major label promoting them who is effectively losing money (big money - 6 figures) due to lack of sales. Now this is really the fault of the label for signing a shitty deal but isn't great for anyone in terms of sustainability. Eventually the band will be dropped from the label and will lose a very valuable advertising and PR channel - plus as much visibility in stores and on TV and on radio as the label is funding the legwork to do this.

Maybe the future for labels is to sign artists to '360' deals - ie that cover all elements of the business and revenue. From recordings to publishing to merch to touring, licencing (ie jingles) plus advertising integration (deals with things like Smirnoff experience or Bacardi B-Live etc). This way both label and artist are aligned in motivation.
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Re: A message from DJ Shadow...

Post by almax »

youthful_implants wrote:
almax wrote:
youthful_implants wrote:
so you see the artists are really up against it. no one likes doing shit for free, NO ONE.
What about Graffitti Artists?
what about them? :smt006
Well, they do art for free, infact they risk arrest and prosecution, even jail, all for a bit of street cred, there is no premise that they should be charging people to view their work.

So why can't musician evolve to that mindset, where musicians "do it for the love of music"?
It will weed out those who do it for the bling, and if someone becomes reknown for what they are doing, they will have opportunities to perform live thrown at them and the money will also appear.
To refer back to grafitti, just like Banksy or other grafitti artists who have "made it".

EDIT: added in quote for reference
Last edited by almax on Mon Jan 11, 2010 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A message from DJ Shadow...

Post by shepherd »

what we have AGAIN is a music model for users but not for musicians.
i do like the potential of spotify for all involved ... plus last fm etc but this is a really good point. somehow some people have begun to think that pandering to the consumer is now what effective marketing strategy is.

so you get lame shit like crowdsourcing, and design by consumer committee etc, and make your own TV ads like Smith Chips and Yaris and Subway - and bad ad campaigns where they all bang on about 'a car designed for you', 'we asked you what you wanted in a frozen TV dinner', 'a brand for you' etc etc. Feels like some brands and some industries are afraid to not pander wholly to the consumer. The funny thing is, right now, the companies which are the most successful are generally assertive in their relationship with their consumers. I believe most people want to be told how things are - not asked how they think they should be personally.

music unfortunately has suffered the most publicly with this - pay if you want, user first policy. again the problem is when a product becomes data - intangible - stealing it becomes okay. When the industry has wanted to protect its livelihood it's been put up as a greedy money hungry evil ... an already filthy and undeservedly rich industry trying to protect its gravy train. At the same time users are now expecting more music, better music, cheaper (or free) and easily accessible.

imagine other industries following suit - supermarkets changing their business model to work only for the consumer. Or the auto industry. Or IT? I can - I'd doubt personally many of us would have jobs after a while of the consumer centric model eroding all that is desirable about operating within a certain industry.
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