east timor

unsoundbwoy · Post by **unsoundbwoy** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 2:53 pm

looking around to educate myself about the current activities in east timor, not having a great deal of success.
anyone found anything substantial?

here's something from crikey
http://www.crikey.com.au/articles/2006/ ... -1608.html

Polecat · Post by **Polecat** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 2:57 pm

I don't know much about it, but I watched the ABC drama on Sunday night called "Answered by Fire" which was about the vote for independance in 1999, and how the UN worked there.

It gave me nightmares! ... but I also found it to be quite an eyeopener to what has happened there in the past.

Last Saturday's Weekend Australian had pages and pages of analysis on the East Timor situation.

unsoundbwoy · Post by **unsoundbwoy** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 3:03 pm

yeh 99 was pretty full on, was just a youngun but was pretty active with the community and oxfam and amnesty at the time.
media coverage is so shit. indymedia are keepin quiet

Polecat · Post by **Polecat** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 3:12 pm

And now the ABC media crew are getting stoned by gangs.

Direkt · Post by **Direkt** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 3:15 pm

^ What, for free?

calstro · Post by **calstro** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 3:19 pm

Direktor wrote:^ What, for free?

LOL

unsoundbwoy · Post by **unsoundbwoy** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 3:23 pm

man you fucking people everytime anyone says anything serious it gets turned into a joke.
the death of almost an entire population over 30 years and your joking about a pun about getting stoned
ha ha fucking ha

unsoundbwoy · Post by **unsoundbwoy** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 3:24 pm

sneaky hands · Post by **sneaky hands** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 3:29 pm

ROFL genocide that shit cracks me up every time

Direkt · Post by **Direkt** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 3:30 pm

Mate, I thought you were serious there!

I watched a bit of the goings on in East Timor on the telly last night, very disturbing. They're sending in some Portugese Riot Police (I think) now. They'll be operating outside of the Oz Command (but working together).

Got me thinking - in any country, the Government or military can do absolutely nothing if the whole country decides to uprise. Scary thought really.

Anarchy is one of the scariest things around - and there seems to be a fair bit of it at the moment from what we hear, ie. Iraq.

unsoundbwoy · Post by **unsoundbwoy** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:04 pm

hmmmm

anarchy and the failed state: australian hegemony in the asia-pacific

i think i could write a book. east timor, papua new guinea, solomon islands.
cant figure out how cynical to be about it all. not sure where the bullshit ends and peoples suffering starts.

sneaky hands · Post by **sneaky hands** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:07 pm

theres some analysis on the situation in the economist this week.

basically they conclude that ASEAN needs to get together and set up a force (like NATO) to deal with this kind of stuff, as Australia doesn't have the resources to police it (and even if they did the external perception could be they are meddling).

witty_pseudonym · Post by **witty_pseudonym** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:08 pm

how bout them aboriginies hey. 30yrs as apposed to a couple of hundred.

i'm not even going to start.

priorities mr howard.

unsoundbwoy · Post by **unsoundbwoy** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:12 pm

you think howard has any way of helping indigenous australia.
nothing he does in that regard will be taken seriously. his desire to kill em all is far too ingrained.
next governments gonna have to get that one back on track

Mellogs · Post by **Mellogs** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:18 pm

Man invents war. Man discovers peace.
He invents war from without.
He discovers peace from within.
War man throws. Peace man sows.
The smile of war is the flood of human blood.
The smile of peace is the love, below, above.

Peace is the whole truth that wishes to enrapture humanity.
War is the whole falsehood that wants to capture humanity.
Peace begins in the soul and ends in the heart.
War begins in the mind and ends in the body.

War forgets peace. Peace forgives war.
War is the death of the life human. Peace is the birth of the Life Divine.
Our vital passions want war.
Our psychic emotions desire peace.
War is clear futility in dire spear-stupidity.
Peace is flowing infinity in glowing eternity.

Man seeks war when he thinks that the world is not his.
Man invites war when he feels that he can conquer the world.
Man proclaims war when he dreams
That the world has already surrendered to him.

Man seeks peace because his earthly existence desperately needs it.
Man welcomes peace because he feels
that in peace alone is his life of achievement and fulfilment.
Man spreads peace because he wants to transcend death.

The animal in man wars against peace in the outer world,
in the world of conflicting ideas.
The divine in man wars against ignorance in the inner world,
in the world of mounting ideals.

The animal in man wants war for the sake of war,
war to devour the snoring world.
The divine in man wants peace for the sake of peace,
peace to feed the hungry world.

Sustain · Post by **Sustain** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:28 pm

Well... to some up the current situation ridiculously briefly (which is kinda impossible)...

Under Indonesian occupation, freedom of travel was strictly limited; therefore, ppl from the east and west (we're talking inside East Timor) were geographically divided (there is an ethnic divide here too but it's pretty minor)... the current tension involves fighting between rival gangs of east and western timorese

There is a 'heiracrchy of sufferage' in East Timor: ppl in the east suffered more under the occupation than ppl in the west. The military is for the large part dominated by the former guerillas who lived in the hills since 1975 and fought the Indonesians. Now, the military is largely controlled by Eastern East Timorese. Ppl from the west are pissed off that they're not getting roles running the military as it is dominated by officers from the west.

Add to this a tension between the military and the police force: the military are locked up in their barracks unable to do anything, while the police control the streets.

So what we've seen is some of the military abandoning their posts and demanding the resignation of the prime minister cos he's been pretty useless. There's alot of opportunism... i'm sure the indonesians are involved because they want to destabilise the country

arrgghhh it's all to complicated, just read the papers. i'll try finding a link for you

Direkt · Post by **Direkt** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:30 pm

unsoundbwoy wrote:his desire to kill em all is far too ingrained.

To quote one Pauline Hanson, "please explain"

unsoundbwoy · Post by **unsoundbwoy** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:45 pm

Sustain
yeah that is about it, there's just been a couple of things that suggest a fair degree of indonesian interference

Direktor
my personal interpretation of the last decade of australian politics, with howard at the helm, in regards to the indigenous population leads me to think that the current administration is in no position to help and to suggest that some policies equate to genocide is not too extreme
I know a lot of people will disagree with that, which is good different opinions are a good thing. arguments on web forums (which is not what my original post was) are pointless.
respekt, g

Direkt · Post by **Direkt** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:50 pm

unsoundbwoy wrote: I know a lot of people will disagree with that, which is good different opinions are a good thing.

Fully. I wouldn't call it anywhere near genocide, but as you said above ^

Sustain · Post by **Sustain** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:55 pm

speaking of genocide...

In relation to the size of the population, the killings of East Timorese under Indonesian occupation were the largest since the holocaust

Between 1975-1981, 200 000 Timorese were slaughtered: The population dropped from almost 800,000 to only 555,000 in this period
the military also conducted forced steralisations on Timorese women, and practicsed mass rape as a weapon of war. they also banned the main local language, 'Tetum'

In 1979 Australia became the only country to formally recognise Indonesian soverinty over East Timor. This happened the same week as negotiations between Aust and Indonesia about how to divide profits from the oil and gas of the Timor sea.

Every Australian government from Whitlam to Howard has the blood of East Timorese on their hands.

-end of rant

unsoundbwoy · Post by **unsoundbwoy** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:56 pm

well, maybe i just like 3 syllable words

Direkt · Post by **Direkt** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 5:13 pm

Sustain wrote:speaking of genocide...

In relation to the size of the population, the killings of East Timorese under Indonesian occupation were the largest since the holocaust

Between 1975-1981, 200 000 Timorese were slaughtered: The population dropped from almost 800,000 to only 555,000 in this period
the military also conducted forced steralisations on Timorese women, and practicsed mass rape as a weapon of war. they also banned the main local language, 'Tetum'

In 1979 Australia became the only country to formally recognise Indonesian soverinty over East Timor. This happened the same week as negotiations between Aust and Indonesia about how to divide profits from the oil and gas of the Timor sea.

Every Australian government from Whitlam to Howard has the blood of East Timorese on their hands.

-end of rant

That is disgusting. Makes my blood boil.

elysium · Post by **elysium** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 5:14 pm

Sustain wrote:arrgghhh it's all to complicated, just read the papers. i'll try finding a link for you

It is extremely complicated. There are so many layers to the conflict that people that are there at the moment are still puzzled.

This concept of west vs east (Loromonu vs Lorosae) has only arisen recently, you really didn't hear about it that much until the current troubles.

Some of it goes back to the old pro-independance / pro-Indonesia debate. As Sustain says the Lorosae come from the east, geographically remote from Indonesia (West Timor is still an Indonesian province) and the heartland of the guerilla movement. Therefore the Lorosae are perceived to have been more involved with the fight for independence and to have put more on the line. There a some feelings that the Loromonu in the west, closer to Indonesia, were more ambivalent towards independence, or even pro-Indonesia.

In addition Alkatiri (the prime minister) is incompetant at best, corrupt at worst. He is ruthless and out of touch with the people. As far as I can gather he was not that involved in the independence stuggle and spent most of his exile in post-colonial mess of Mozambique, not the best place to learn about how to govern a new nation. His government suffers from cronyism and has aggravated any nascent east/west issues that may have existed at independence in 2002 by divisive policies. The sacking of the 591 soldiers from the west earlier this year just brought everything to a head - this has been building for awhile.

Another factor is the issue of retribution. Many East Timorese want a court set up to try Indonesians and the militias for the disgusting acts that occurred in 99 as the Indonesians withdrew, after the vote for independence went through -- not only did they implement a scorched earth policy and almost completely obliterate all the existing infrastructure and amenities, but they carried out unspeakable violence / torture / rape and encouraged this sort of conduct by pro-Indonesia militias. For those of you who watched Answered by Fire you would have had a small glimpse of the atrocities that went on in this country which is only 1 1/2 hours flight from Australia. In spite of all this, the fact remains that Timor Leste depends on Indonesia for the majority of its imports and doesn't want to piss them off - and the government realises this and a war crimes court hasn't been set up as yet. You can kind of understand putting the past behind and just wanting to get on with things - but we get fined for not having a ticket here in Australia, how can Indonesian military figures that tourtured and killed civillians be openly allowed to go free (and even be promoted) just across the water in Indonesia? These kind of issues have created further disillusion with the government and its perceived corruption.

Lastly a significant part of the current problems are also the opportunistic hooligans who are burning, looting and spreading rumours to instil fear for no good reason. Among a population that is suffering post-traumatic stress en masse after the atrocities of 1999 the fear this creates is far more amplified than what you and I would feel in the same situation. Even during the peaceful protests (before they turned violent on 28 April) people were packing up their homes and fleeing into the hills afraid that 1999 was going to happen all over again. This has created a huge refugee problem and left the city open to looting.

One thing I am certain of is that Alkatari has to go... what a fcuking tool. I found it hilarious was that he accused Xanana (the president) of trying to stage a coup... excuse me, but he is the head of state!! Please tell me how the head of state can stage a coup you dipshit!

It is a pity that Xanana made a commitment never to take high office (the presidency he consented to because it is pretty much symbolic) if independance was achieved. Now there is a man that I admire wholeheartedly.

It is just so sad that this has come to pass after the long stuggle for independence. Maybe they can get it right this time.

unsoundbwoy · Post by **unsoundbwoy** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 5:25 pm

i was reading that a lot of the documents regarding the violence in 99 were destroyed, stolen or comprimised this week.
including all those implicating wiranto

Direkt · Post by **Direkt** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 5:27 pm

Ely - you definately are the loop.... thanks for the info!

unsoundbwoy · Post by **unsoundbwoy** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 5:29 pm

oh i have a ref for the stolen files
http://www.shanghaidaily.com/art/2006/0 ... nister.htm

elysium · Post by **elysium** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 5:32 pm

unsoundbwoy wrote:i was reading that a lot of the documents regarding the violence in 99 were destroyed, stolen or comprimised this week.
including all those implicating wiranto

How shit is it. Alot of that stuff wasn't duplicated.

Lephrenic · Post by **Lephrenic** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 1:18 am

Sustain wrote:speaking of genocide...

In relation to the size of the population, the killings of East Timorese under Indonesian occupation were the largest since the holocaust

Consider also that around 500 000 Indonesians had been killed in the preceding years during Soeharto's takeover from Sukarno. So much bood spilled in that region.

Sustain · Post by **Sustain** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 6:18 am

Special Hegg wrote:
Sustain wrote:speaking of genocide...

In relation to the size of the population, the killings of East Timorese under Indonesian occupation were the largest since the holocaust
Consider also that around 500 000 Indonesians had been killed in the preceding years during Soeharto's takeover from Sukarno. So much bood spilled in that region.

Actually it was more like between one and two million so-called communists who were killed under Suharto. This was all done with US weaponary. This is a guy who was friends with our PM Paul Keating.

Sustain · Post by **Sustain** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 3:57 pm

Has anyone been to Timor recently, or have any contacts there? I'm doing my thesis on politics of Identity (regional, generational, resistance, linguistic, nation/modernity v community/tradition, etc.) and hopefully will be heading over in November...

I'm particularly interested in any research/ambassadorship/exchange grants!

Lizkins · Post by **Lizkins** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 4:03 pm

Sustain wrote:Has anyone been to Timor recently, or have any contacts there? I'm doing my thesis on politics of Identity (regional, generational, resistance, linguistic, nation/modernity v community/tradition, etc.) and hopefully will be heading over in November...

I'm particularly interested in any research/ambassadorship/exchange grants!

PM Elysium. She has been there a couple of times in the last couple of years, and met with the big-wigs over there.

same o · Post by **same o** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 5:36 pm

Lizkins wrote: and met with the big-wigs over there.

that would be odd, talking to a big wig.

Lizkins · Post by **Lizkins** » Tue Sep 23, 2008 10:07 am

dad joke

Melbourne Beats

east timor

east timor

Re: east timor

Re: east timor

Re: east timor

Re: east timor