Needles

Tips, hints, help, tech support, setups, systems and all things related to making phat beats. Post your latest production for all to hear & review. Or quiz the resident nerds about that tech problem you just can't figure out.
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deviant
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Needles

Post by deviant »

Just wondering how often you should replace your stylus?

Does an old stylus damage your records as the myth goes? Or does it just not sound as good?

Also, what stylus/cart/headshell models do you guys all use? Any ideas as to the difference between certain brands?

My stanton HP680s are about 18 months old now and I'm thinking of updating or replacing (which ever is better as this stage)

I kinda like the Sure White Label, no real reason I just like the way they look :?
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Fents
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Post by Fents »

Ortorfon Pro S or Bust. :!:
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Lós Kasino—
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Post by Lós Kasino— »

Shure M-447 ... never misses a groove !

:D
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safire
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Post by safire »

Ortofon easily, amazing sound quality especially with the night club E. & the gold ones.

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saintberry
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Post by saintberry »

man ive gone through about 8 different cart setups...and ive stuck with m44gs for about a year now.

m447 for playing gigs - i like the loud output for gigs (yeah like i ever do that in Melbourne used to be a weekly event *sigh* :roll: ) and 44gs for mixing @ home.

ive never been able to get anything to track nearly as well as m44gs with only 2.2g of tracking force! :shock:

i find ortofons have slightly better fidelity but kill your records way more so its not worth it. ive tried, dj e, s (as in skratch..the pink ones) and standard silver ones.

you wont really notice the record wear if you dont skratch i spose...


im yet to try the new thudrumble/ortofon carts...from all accounts ive heard they are a gimmick and people are kicking up a stink that you will be FORCED to use ortofon carts in DMC from next year on. haha the year they put restrictions on what carts you can use they lift the restriction on what decks/mixer you can use. go figure.


in short mate - every 6 months @ least if they get heavy usage. buy in bulk if you can, will save you in the long run! and yes, if the synthetic diamond gets out of shape they will cut your records up AND sound bad…
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deviant
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Post by deviant »

safire wrote:Ortofon easily, amazing sound quality especially with the night club E. & the gold ones.

Image
I must say I really like the look of the ortofons... When I've used them though (in clubs or other ppls houses) I've found they feel heaps "lighter" or "flimsy" even... Do you have to wind the weighting up a fair bit?

Wicked post SB :)

What's the difference between the m447 and the 44gs? They look ugly as fuck but I hear they rule for sound. The white labels have the same stylus so the tracking ability would be the same yeah? just the cartridge that would make the sound different (different shape and all)...

I must say I find all this stuff very interesting... The stylus/cartridge set up is paramount to getting a good sound as they are a very "colourful" (if that makes sense to anybody here) transducer. There would have to be a lot of personal preference and not steadfast "this is better" options. Anyway, I'll stop rabitting on now about the blindingly obvious now :?
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Post by Scholtzy »

The difference between the m447 & m447g is that one is designed for mixing (g) and the other for hip hop. the m447g requires less weight, and the stylus apparently is better biassed for dance music, clearer highs.

I own some m447's and I mix with them, they are great because they rarely skip when cueing, they also have a nice boomy bass response, I also hear they have low record wear, but only time will tell on that one. The stylus for sound quality is also in my price bracket, they cost $40-$50 each.

My only problem with them is that the highs tend to be a tiny bit distorted....good concordes do sound better in the high range, and are more true, and if your mixing with cds it is hard to tell the change of formats.

I change my needles every 9 months or so, and you can usually hear it becuse the high range starts sounding shrill, the mid range muffled, and the low range sounds weak. When this does happen you should change your needles right away, because the stylus which is spherical in shape to begin with is now narrow and sharper. When this happens the grooves take a pounding because the stylus starts scratching against the grooves...bad.

More detail is here: http://www.audioinvest.no/tt_vinyl/ttv_styl.htm

Concordes come in two types S (spherical) and E (Elleptical). The S and E refer to the shape of the stylus, the spherical is shaped like a 0, and the elleptical is shaped more like this (). Eleptical styli do sound better and track well because they sit lower in the groove, and have more contact with the walls of the groove due to thier shape. The downside here is because of the increased contact, the higher they wear the records due to an increase in friction. Do not consider these is you scratch!

The spherical styli do not sit as deep and generate less wear, but fidelity is lost. Its up to you to decide what your priorities are. Whatever you do dont swap between elleptical and sherical because the constant change in stylus footprint (unavoidable pattern of wear during playback) will eventually mess your grooves up.

At the end of the day it is said that a record can only get 200 plays :cry: , but even taking simple steps like cleaning your records and putting them away out of dust and the elements after play will greatly increase the lifetime.

Yes I am very paranoid about record wear :roll: :teef:
Last edited by Scholtzy on Fri Nov 25, 2005 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by saintberry »

ok here is the low down as far as i see it mate.

if your going to get ortofon and have technics decks MAKE sure you buy the OM carts. they are the carts you manually mount into the hedshell and not the congords that are all in ones. why...well you answered the question for your self. they flimsy feeling is because the 4 gold connection pins on the concords are designed to fit a variety of decks. vestax, numark, stantion and technics. and even tho they fit rather well...they are just a little small. this brings in 2 problems. 1 fucking your tone arm and 2 when i had them the left channel would alwasy drop out. id imagine it was from the connection just being a little too loose.


so yeah, they look cool and you can see the grove on the record REALLY well and the sound is AMAZING - they are the plus sides. dont get me wrong, they are gold carts but i prefer the shures...and here is why


as for the diference between the 447 and g it goes like this.

no wait, my woman it forcing me out the door ill have to finish this tomorrow mate, d bridge and deekline/wizard double awate! stay tuned.
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Post by Cubist »

Scholtzy wrote:Yes I am very paranoid about record wear :roll: :teef:
No...REALLY! :roll:
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saintberry
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Post by saintberry »

scholtzy is so on the money there...covered pretty much everything.

myth number 1 about shure carts tho - the m447 was never designed for hiphop. In fact it was in production well before DMCs got big. its just so suited to that style it came to be (and is marketed as) the hiphop cart.

from memory it has a 7mv output which for its time (until the thudrumble carts) was massive. I think the gs have about 5mv. also has low record wear, but best of all you can get these things setup so well on technics decks they track better than even on pdx 2ks. you can "side" mount them in the headshell. basically have the cart on a angle that runs so the stylus is in a straight line with the centre of the tonearm pivot. this turns the S shaped tonearm into more of a classic straight shape providing better tracking. again, you loose a small amount of fidelity as the stylus has better contact with the inner (closest to the spindle) wall of the grove. you can counter act that with anti skate if you like but i dont bother. ive done recording tests and the left channel is usually like 0.1 to 0.3 db- compared to right. i think peeps ears would be hard pressed to hear that.

what scholtzy said about finding a balance in your cart choice is spot on. you cant have everything. fidelity and tracking are 2 things that dont go hand in hand and lets face it...if fidelity is your number one thing. you shouldnt be djing. sure the 1200 was first designed for karaoke bars and its a hybrid of a hifi deck....but its waaay from true "hifi". most decent hifi decks would have a platter on a suspension system, be belt driven and have a moving coil cart that would snap with the slightest back cue.

You need to find the best balance between fidelity and tracking – with the lest amount of record wear. This will be different for every dj and the only real way is to experiment.

EDIT: needs also to be said that like most of the ortofon carts the shure m447 and m44g have an identical cartridge, its only the stylus that differs.

for those wanting cheap ortofon setups....by the pro cartridge (black one) and then just get the nightclub stylus - they are identical apart from colour and will save you a bomb.
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Post by Scholtzy »

saintberry wrote: EDIT: needs also to be said that like most of the ortofon carts the shure m447 and m44g have an identical cartridge, its only the stylus that differs.
You sure man? I tried putting a g stylus on a m447 cart and got this awful tearing sound :? I got them brand new as well and afaik had them on the right settings....maybe I got a bad batch or something.
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Post by saintberry »

yeah 100% on that...i got in contact with them when i made the switch from 7s to gs just to make sure i didnt have to buy the whole new deal

an ortofon rep posts on the futureproducers.com forums and gave us the heads up in regards to those.
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Post by deviant »

You know anything about the sure white labels?

RE: record wear....

I was practicing a basic beat-juggling exercise the other day.... I was using the very first part of a favourite breaks record. Anyway... I was practicing it for AGES.... and now the first part of one record is REALLY dull and worn sounding (doesn't matter cause I have another copy (obviously) and I only use the start bit to cue a mix anyway)... The other copy however is PERFECTLY FINE!!! both my turntables are set up exactly the same, both my needles/carts are the same age etc etc... I have set them up so that I have them "pointing" away from the tone arm pivot (as you mentioned)..

Anyway.....

I've just checked my decks and found that one anti-skate control isn't working or something, when I set the weights at "0" one tonearm wants to drift really badly in one direction, even though both the anti-skates are set on "0". Bugger, that would explain the mondo wear on one record (would it not?). I should get it looked at.
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Post by saintberry »

yeah anti skate is almost the most important factor when back cueing comes in. as all the forces are opposite. it should always be set to 0 for skratching/juggling. if for basic mixing and hifi listening you should set it to your tracking weight.

other little things that could have added to your problem deviant...

1. size of the spindle hole. if its too large there will be sideways movement between the record on the platter and the spindle. this will cause issues. if thats a prob. get some stickers, pull the sticky part off and keep the really smooth glossy part. cut it into strips and stick it in the hole of the record - smooth part out.

and also

2. as strange as this sounds....hand movements. especially with juggling/skratching. my fader hand (left) is ALWAYS a lot lighter on my record for some reason. go figure i wear the right hand side of my fader and records out a lot more than left. even tho rarely practice with my right hand on fader. its just a lot tougher/stronger. Also a good tip for getting your fingers stronger for crabs. rather than having your fader hand on fader, use it on the record for a few weeks and it will get beefcake. getting them in time seems to be much harder tho…haha



record wear is just something you have to deal with if your keen into turntablism. its a foe for fidelity but larger grooves can actually help tracking (or so some say). im not going to recommend this but - qbert swears that you should play battle records like 50 times through before you ever use them in a comp. he rkns it makes the groves larger and therefore you get better contact with stylus and groove. personally i also think it would make them wider as well as deeper which would be a problem...but yeah when i met him i asked him about that and he stuck by it :?


do you skratch much deviant? im keen for someone to QnA with me so we can both learn off each other. after i finish a mix im working on ill get an mp3 worked out for it...



oh and as for the whitelables i havent used them (too expensive for me). spec wise they look a little better then the m44g for fidelity. tracking would be the key and i imagine thats why they have mounted the cart into the hedshell.
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Post by ukime »

T I C K A wrote:Shure M-447 ... never misses a groove !

:D
quoted for truth. my choice.
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Post by Direkt »

Gotta admit, I really like my Numark CS-1 concorde's. They're the Carl Cox ones, at $129 each. Really nice sound, haven't had any issues whatsoever.
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yenks
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Post by yenks »

Hey having problems with my new Ortofon DJs i bought
Image

its to do with the weight..
These things are like light as a feather, and since i bought them i cant set my weight on my tonearm high enough to make them not skip when simply cueing up the record on the first beat and pushing it back and forth.
Ive tried changing the weight on the tonearms to all available weights, and changing the anti skating as well, i also tried putting the weight on backwards (head this makes it heavier) but it still skips whenever i push back and forth on one beat.

Please help :?
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yenks
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Post by yenks »

AC23_steve wrote:You added on the end peices that come with 1200s? the little things that screw on, maybe that might work
which are these ?
i dont remember not putting nething on the decks when i got em and i dont have ne left over peices.
so if i did somehow miss these end peices, they are gone now. :?
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Post by yenks »

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yenks
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Post by yenks »

AC23_steve wrote:youre not really meant/need to use them on
you sure about this ??

but yeah i took them off and yeah no problem ne more. as the ortofons are so light.
But it feels alot heavier, not sure how much damage im doing to the records..
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saintberry
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Post by saintberry »

yeah glad you got it sorted mate, you were doing tha opposite of what you needed to.

get rid of those extra weights and keep them in a safe place. with some cart setups you will need to use them to ballance your tonearm.

most dj carts wont need them, quite a few "higher" end carts will.
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yenks
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Post by yenks »

saintberry wrote:yeah glad you got it sorted mate, you were doing tha opposite of what you needed to.

get rid of those extra weights and keep them in a safe place. with some cart setups you will need to use them to ballance your tonearm.

most dj carts wont need them, quite a few "higher" end carts will.
yeah thanks for the advice AC23 and saintberry

You have no idea how much im lovin these new needles...
compared to my old shitty ones (which were soo overused and old and worn down)
Seriously the high hats just sounded like a long hisssssh compared to a nice clean hit.
And now i notice the nice clean hits, and omg, its mad, im loving these new needles :D
go the ortofons baby !!
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yenks
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Post by yenks »

I have been having more trouble...

without having the weights on, the needles are TOO heavy
i have been told from a number of sources that you should always have these on and taking them off like Ac23 suggested is only damaging your needles and digging away at the records...... and ive actually been having skipping issues too

so ive gone back with the weights on as ive been told its plain stupid to take them off...
And ive been told the technique to get them set right, where u get it at the freeweight where it balances on its own. and then turn it counterclockwise more in 3.5 grams. So its 3.5 grams heavier than free weight.
Problem is, i turn it till its freeweight(balancing by itself) then try to turn it the 3.5, but it only reaches 1.5 grams before it gets to the end and i cant turn it ne more...
And 1.5 grams isnt heavy enough, sure it sits on, but often skips when pushing back and forth on the record...

this is DRIVING ME INSANE
i can either have it too light or too heavy, no middleground
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yenks
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Post by yenks »

AC23_steve wrote:Weight is weight really, once its zero'd your adding weight.
The added weights are to help counter-balance if your cart is hardcore heavy.

I might be wrong, but im pretty sure dude :)
still not sure what youre sayin i should do

i cant leave the weights off, as it skips !!!!! and is doing more damage

but i cant mix or even push off properly with the weights on
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Post by saintberry »

EDIT...wrote like a fucking essay on how to balance your tonearm, only to read you did that
Last edited by saintberry on Thu Dec 22, 2005 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by saintberry »

EDIT: fucking hell i should learn to READ!

try and ballance your tonearm with the extra weight @ the back of the counterweight.

the usual fix for that problem is to just add an extra weight underneath the headshell...but seeing as you have concordes yo cant do that.


also set your anti skate to 0
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Post by yenks »

saintberry wrote:
try and ballance your tonearm with the extra weight @ the back of the counterweight.
extra weight ?? where do i get this from ??
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Post by lynt »

I kinda got what you were saying Steve, but this is what we do at DMC.

1) Put your stylus on the tonearm
2) Put the needle down on the platter, adjust the tonearm height so the tonearm is horizontal. Flat. 100%. For concords, around 1.5/2mm
3) Now adjust the counterweight so the tonearm "floats" 100% horizontally. You should be able to "swing" the tonearm back and forth across the platter with out the stylus touching the platter. To do this, push the tonearm as far into the centre of the platter as possible with the anti-skate on 0. Then wind the anti-skate to 3 and it will magically return to the end of the platter. If it does this without moving in height, you wins.
4) Now you have perfect balance, turn the counterweight measurement dial so that it has "0" lined up with the little line on the counterweight
5) Depending on your stylus' recommended weight, wind the entire counterweight forward until you reach the weight. 1g, 2g's, 3g's.
6) Play some breaks.



Now, that's the textbook way we show our customers.



For me, when I jump on the decks, 50% of the time I adjust the tonearm so it's flat, this is very important as you're not applying any extra downward pressure onto the vinyl, which carves the vinyl and puts pressure on your stylus.

I wind the counterweight forward as much as I can and wind it back a little so that it's not too heavy, but heavy enough to not skip.

Play some breakz.
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Post by lynt »

yenks wrote:I have been having more trouble...

without having the weights on, the needles are TOO heavy
i have been told from a number of sources that you should always have these on and taking them off like Ac23 suggested is only damaging your needles and digging away at the records...... and ive actually been having skipping issues too
Those tiny extra weights you screw into the tonearm are useless. Put them back in the box.
yenks wrote: so ive gone back with the weights on as ive been told its plain stupid to take them off...
And ive been told the technique to get them set right, where u get it at the freeweight where it balances on its own. and then turn it counterclockwise more in 3.5 grams. So its 3.5 grams heavier than free weight.
Problem is, i turn it till its freeweight(balancing by itself) then try to turn it the 3.5, but it only reaches 1.5 grams before it gets to the end and i cant turn it ne more...
And 1.5 grams isnt heavy enough, sure it sits on, but often skips when pushing back and forth on the record...


this is DRIVING ME INSANE
i can either have it too light or too heavy, no middleground
You're turning it the wrong way. Counterclockwise will make the cart lighter. The counterweight should be pushed forward up the tonearm to apply weight.

We have the same weighted concords (dosen't matter what concord, they all weigh the same). So I don't see a reason why they're too heavy.

Too heavy to me is the plastic of the stylus touching the vinyl, the plastic prong between the needle tip and the stylus should support the weight of the tonearm.
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deviant
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Post by deviant »

^^ yeah, I had a mate who had his counterweights on backwards. I was trying to talk him through how to balance his tone arm over the phone. Needless to say this exercise was a failure :lol:

I went around to his house to help him set up his new decks and "wallah" backwards counterweight fixed, tone arm balanced, played some breaks.
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Post by JAMESSSS »

deviant wrote:^^ yeah, I had a mate who had his counterweights on backwards. I was trying to talk him through how to balance his tone arm over the phone. Needless to say this exercise was a failure :lol:

I went around to his house to help him set up his new decks and "wallah" backwards counterweight fixed, tone arm balanced, played some breaks.
Some hip hop djs put the weights on backwards as you can achive more pressure that way I think?
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Post by lynt »

jbs wrote:
deviant wrote:^^ yeah, I had a mate who had his counterweights on backwards. I was trying to talk him through how to balance his tone arm over the phone. Needless to say this exercise was a failure :lol:

I went around to his house to help him set up his new decks and "wallah" backwards counterweight fixed, tone arm balanced, played some breaks.
Some hip hop djs put the weights on backwards as you can achive more pressure that way I think?

Yep.
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Post by Scotrod »

I'm in total agreeance with Lynt. I was about to write the same thing but not anywhere near as simple and concise. :D
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