Serato, CDJS, Vinyl, Ableton: DON'T MISS OUT ON YOUR 2C!

patch · Post by **patch** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 2:59 pm

perhaps we can play cd's but at the same time have a needle sitting on record turned up so you can hear the crowd thru it

Jesse I · Post by **Jesse I** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 3:18 pm

ShiKung wrote: The point is that most DJs that play full time these days play digital or CDs and its been that way for a while.

yeah, almost every international we've toured from the sounds (Tribe of Kings, Sentinel) to the artists (Junior Reid, Jah Mason, Chaka Demus & Pliers, Michael Rose) have been 100% digital.

Jesse I · Post by **Jesse I** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 3:22 pm

fooishbar wrote:
Jesse I wrote:I just got tired of having wicked new tunes on my computer that I couldn't play out unless I burned them to CD - and given the choice I'd rather play off serato than CDJs.
dubplates.

you mean acetates? you gotta be kidding... the way new dancehall comes out it would cost me like $1500 a month...

we do have most of our custom dubplate specials cut on acetate though. you wanna talk sound quality issues? damn, you should hear some our older ones... scratchy as all hell...

dubplates are still cool though, I'll give you that...

Gliding High · Post by **Gliding High** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 4:51 pm

Digital is just natural progression, its unavoidable if you are serious about what you do.
Having a digital system that embraces vinyl characteristics and playabilty should be a worthy compromise for any 'vinyl only' DJ - myself included.
The technology is now up to scratch (pardon the pun), the glitches have been ironed out.
If your going to stick with an old medium while the performance world progresses, its eventually going to be the equivalent of dragging a Hammond organ around with you to every gig. Why do that when you can emulate the same machine exactly with software?
I love vinyl as much as the next guy, but its finite lifespan, cost and transport issues marked it for death the day DJ's got access to performing their stuff digitally.

I'm just really glad that some intuitive software companies have given us the ability to play our tunes in a relatively similar 'vinyl' manner, rather than just with knobs and faders, and that the art of the DJ will survive - continuing to evolve on the technichal/skill/musician side of things.
I dig that I can still beatmach and mix my tunes with my own brain, rather than the computers, in the digital realm - if I so choose

Post by **JAMESSSS** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 4:57 pm

So why compromise with with something that embraces vinyl characteristics?

Why not go all digital?

Isn't it a little archaic to play your music off a fully digital system but use a turntable as a really dodgy analog control for the pitch?

Gliding High · Post by **Gliding High** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 5:09 pm

jbs wrote:So why compromise with with something that embraces vinyl characteristics?

Why not go all digital?

Isn't it a little archaic to play your music off a fully digital system but use a turntable as an analog control for the pitch?

Not at all.
The original vinyl turntable is without doubt the most adept tool for mixing pre-made tunes.
Its weakness lies in the medium you have to use with it - vinyl (for reasons mentioned above).
So, combine an oldstyle turntable with a digital library and vinyl feel, and you have everything a DJ worth his salt could want and more (also with the abilty to easly transition back to normal vinyl if the need arises).

I've never played a CD out, but I'm loving this digital vinyl thing - I'm sold completely

Post by **JAMESSSS** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 5:20 pm

I'm sure a better interface can be made. I mean the picking up and putting down of the needle to control the drop point is cool and works well, but controlling your pitch by the speed a metal platter spins?

It seems outdated when the medium you are playing is just transmitting positioning info back to a computer which has the music on it.

Why not use a purpose designed MIDI interface?

Hell, why not just use Ableton (or similar)?

If you are embracing technology why not go as far as you can take it while still maintaining a non ridgid set structure?

Gliding High · Post by **Gliding High** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 5:24 pm

I would like to play my records with my mind in a football field sized anti-gravity tank to little green men in silver suits as much as anyone.
One step at a time cowboy

Post by **JAMESSSS** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 5:28 pm

But Ableton is here!

We sadly have to wait for mind control.

I still play vinyl.

One day I'll make the jump though I suppose.

Gliding High · Post by **Gliding High** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 5:37 pm

I see what your saying, but ableton is a different method of performing. I take nothing away from it, but it isn't Dj'ing, it's something else entirely.

I'd really like to use it out (as it is an amazing program), but I'm already comfortable with my own style of performance - and I've played hundreds of gigs this way. Hence me wanting to use something similar, that gives me the same feel, while saving me cash, and possibly even enhancing what I can already do without having to change my style completely.
See what I mean?

Go Traktor man, you won't regret it

nic · Post by **nic** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 7:38 pm

Do people think djing with abelton is as valid as say cd's or vinyl?

obliveus · Post by **obliveus** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 7:54 pm

I dont know squat about Ableton, but saw someone use it once. I think they had all the tracks pre-programmed in or something and were just fiddling with the knobs. I'm probably wrong though and they were probably doing something completely mind blowing...I think I was pissed. Earthcore...yeah, that was it. Miagi, maybe??? Hmmm...

Post by **fooishbar** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 8:41 pm

Gliding High wrote:The original vinyl turntable is without doubt the most adept tool for mixing pre-made tunes.

not really; there's a difference between what most people learned on and 'the best'. it's pretty shithouse actually. not to mention that every single club has some interesting and unique flaw in its decks. when was the last time you played on decks with true pitch, that didn't just stop dead or shoot into the stratosphere when you so much looked at them, etc?

and that's just the practical problems. in terms of the actual interface etc, i can't see how it's better than, say, serato, who appear to have really nailed it.

Gliding High · Post by **Gliding High** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 1:00 am

fooishbar wrote:
Gliding High wrote:The original vinyl turntable is without doubt the most adept tool for mixing pre-made tunes.
not really; there's a difference between what most people learned on and 'the best'. it's pretty shithouse actually. not to mention that every single club has some interesting and unique flaw in its decks. when was the last time you played on decks with true pitch, that didn't just stop dead or shoot into the stratosphere when you so much looked at them, etc?

and that's just the practical problems. in terms of the actual interface etc, i can't see how it's better than, say, serato, who appear to have really nailed it.

I don't think it's shitous at all. In fact, if your ears are trained up, that shit is in time in within seconds.
I'm yet to find anything that matches beats better than my own brain - so the pitch shifter on a pair of technics decks is just an extension of that. Flick, flick, flick, in.
I've rarely had trouble with the pitch on decks. Hassles for me are usually more to do with the needles or a shitful mixer.
I guess it happens - but usually if some arseclown spills beer in there or something similar. It's never something that has repeatedly plagued me though. In fact, I can only remember the pitch being an issue maybe a couple of times, ever.

I didn't even know you played out Foo. But you learn something new every day. Will come check your styles some time

Gliding High · Post by **Gliding High** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 1:07 am

obliveus wrote:I dont know squat about Ableton, but saw someone use it once. I think they had all the tracks pre-programmed in or something and were just fiddling with the knobs. I'm probably wrong though and they were probably doing something completely mind blowing...I think I was pissed. Earthcore...yeah, that was it. Miagi, maybe??? Hmmm...

Yes, Myagi plays Ableton like it should be played. He mixes it like a good DJ mixing vinyl.
But, he learned to play on vinyl first - he's actually a really good DJ.
(But don't tell him I said that. I prefer abusing him

)

Brain · Post by **Brain** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:55 am

obliveus wrote:I dont know squat about Ableton, but saw someone use it once. I think they had all the tracks pre-programmed in or something and were just fiddling with the knobs. I'm probably wrong though and they were probably doing something completely mind blowing...I think I was pissed. Earthcore...yeah, that was it. Miagi, maybe??? Hmmm...

Myagi doesn't pre-program any of his sets. In fact he hates it when other people who play on Ableton pre-program their set.

Lil MiSbreaks · Post by **Lil MiSbreaks** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 11:03 am

nic wrote:Do people think djing with abelton is as valid as say cd's or vinyl?

Abelton from LMB's point of view.

Pre-entering your tracks, puting them in an order, and playing with your knob whilst claiming something is 'live'

That is a lie and its terrible, TERRIBLE.

Abelton whilst playing your own produced tracks. Same as above cept youve written the tunes. I dont actually think this is that bad, but it would be nice to actually give people who have paid to see you play a reason to not put the cd on in their lounge room and get pissed at home

Abelton 'live' playing - actually picking tracks to load up, adding in your own stuff, chopping and changing at the dam time. Now thats cool imo. Your doing something up there, making it more of a show.

There's my 2c

Gliding High · Post by **Gliding High** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 11:14 am

Lil MiSbreaks wrote:
nic wrote:Do people think djing with abelton is as valid as say cd's or vinyl?
Abelton from LMB's point of view.

Pre-entering your tracks, puting them in an order, and playing with your knob whilst claiming something is 'live' That is a lie and its terrible, TERRIBLE.

Abelton whilst playing your own produced tracks. Same as above cept youve written the tunes. I dont actually think this is that bad, but it would be nice to actually give people who have paid to see you play a reason to not put the cd on in their lounge room and get pissed at home

Abelton 'live' playing - actually picking tracks to load up, adding in your own stuff, chopping and changing at the dam time. Now thats cool imo. Your doing something up there, making it more of a show.

There's my 2c

I'm with you Sammy

I guess that's another reason digital DJ'ing prgrams like Traktor and Serato are extra cool - they preserve the art of the DJ. Would much rather see someone mix it up than see someone animatedly move a controller. But that's the DJ in me.

Lil MiSbreaks · Post by **Lil MiSbreaks** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 11:17 am

Yeah same. Id love to have Serato actually, although it scares me with the whole, something happens to your laptop, WHAT DO YOU DO?!?!?!?!

Scary.

Gliding High · Post by **Gliding High** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 11:21 am

Yeah, the laptop is my worry too.
I only have a shit old Dell thing, and can't afford a good one right now.

Most people I've talked to about it say you could carry a pre-mixed CD around with you, so if worse comes to worst you can whack it in for a bit while your computer reboots (or whatever needs to be done) then you can mix out of it and continue.
It's all pretty scary tho.

deviant · Post by **deviant** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 11:45 am

I hate the aesthetic of DJs constantly looking a laptop screen tbh....

Rusko has the right idea... He hides his lappy under the console, then ducks down to select track just as if he was going down to get a record from a crate. Traktor also has a cool feature where you can move the next track in a sequence by just flipping the record over, meaning you don't have to bury your face in a laptop looking for the next track.... unfortunately you do need to have the track-list preprogrammed. I guess you could do a bit of both.

obliveus · Post by **obliveus** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 11:46 am

Re: Serato

I just bring a bag of 45's with me everywhere I go...haven't had to use them yet though...fingers crossed. Others I know have...

deviant · Post by **deviant** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 11:50 am

Lil MiSbreaks wrote:Yeah same. Id love to have Serato actually, although it scares me with the whole, something happens to your laptop, WHAT DO YOU DO?!?!?!?! Scary.

Nathan Fake comes to mind.... that was a total disaster, poor guy

patch · Post by **patch** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 1:51 pm

deviant wrote:
Lil MiSbreaks wrote:Yeah same. Id love to have Serato actually, although it scares me with the whole, something happens to your laptop, WHAT DO YOU DO?!?!?!?! Scary.
Nathan Fake comes to mind.... that was a total disaster, poor guy

note : always have a backup on disc ready to go

quiet roar · Post by **quiet roar** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 1:52 pm

Brain wrote:
obliveus wrote:I dont know squat about Ableton, but saw someone use it once. I think they had all the tracks pre-programmed in or something and were just fiddling with the knobs. I'm probably wrong though and they were probably doing something completely mind blowing...I think I was pissed. Earthcore...yeah, that was it. Miagi, maybe??? Hmmm...

Myagi doesn't pre-program any of his sets. In fact he hates it when other people who play on Ableton pre-program their set.

Yet pre-planning a whole set is ok if it's done via vinyl?

The rules seem to be getting awfully complicated.

Lil MiSbreaks · Post by **Lil MiSbreaks** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 1:54 pm

Nah, I dont mind the pre-planning on vinyl, its more that you dont even mix on Abelton, you just plug in the info and press GO and thats it. So there is zero work being done up there.
I just dont see the point, you may as well have a pretty girl standing there and a red hot cd playing.

lilstormer · Post by **lilstormer** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 2:00 pm

Lil MiSbreaks wrote:Nah, I dont mind the pre-planning on vinyl, its more that you dont even mix on Abelton, you just plug in the info and press GO and thats it. So there is zero work being done up there.
I just dont see the point, you may as well have a pretty girl standing there and a red hot cd playing.

Indeed you speak truly.

Ableton comes into it's own when the person playing it remixes stuff on the fly, cuts new loops etc.. and generally plays live (a la Myagi). With the way some dj's play on Ableton they might as well play a premixed cd and just play with the effects... my 2c worth.

Blaxter · Post by **Blaxter** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 2:02 pm

ShiKung wrote:
Blaxter wrote:Shikung, that was a dumb list, why put recodsd and CDs/ Serato in the same column? You can't tell which DJ's only played digital?
well you split them.

The point is that most DJs that play full time these days play digital or CDs and its been that way for a while.

Be good to know which DJ's use vinyl though, you stats are warped. Only shows who isn't using CDs but doesn prove how many DJs aren't suing records. Needs 3 columsn in my opinion. Vinyl Only, Digital Only and combination.

Brain · Post by **Brain** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 2:11 pm

quiet roar wrote:
Brain wrote:
obliveus wrote:I dont know squat about Ableton, but saw someone use it once. I think they had all the tracks pre-programmed in or something and were just fiddling with the knobs. I'm probably wrong though and they were probably doing something completely mind blowing...I think I was pissed. Earthcore...yeah, that was it. Miagi, maybe??? Hmmm...

Myagi doesn't pre-program any of his sets. In fact he hates it when other people who play on Ableton pre-program their set.
Yet pre-planning a whole set is ok if it's done via vinyl?

The rules seem to be getting awfully complicated.

Nothing complicated about it. Pre-programming and pre-planning are totally different things. As Sam says I was referring to pressing a button on Ableton and doing nothing else. Myagi might know exactly what tracks he is going to play beforehand - it's the way that he does it that's interesting as he manipulates the sounds live.

Post by **JAMESSSS** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 2:19 pm

So in Ableton selecting one long track and pushing play is bad, selecting ten tracks and pushing play for each one is OK?

quiet roar · Post by **quiet roar** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 2:20 pm

^^ Apparently, only if you fiddle around with effects as you do it.

I do get it, brain, but looking at it philosophically, I think you over-estimate (not just you - it's a dj thing, in general) what the average punter finds interesting.

Post by **JAMESSSS** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 2:25 pm

But most Vinyl DJs don't use effects!

DOUBLE STANDARDS TBH!

lilstormer · Post by **lilstormer** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 2:52 pm

jbs wrote:So in Ableton selecting one long track and pushing play is bad, selecting ten tracks and pushing play for each one is OK?

I think you misunderstand, my understanding of the way Myagi plays (and i'm sure others do this too but I've only really chatted to him about it) is that he has the bits of the tracks and he puts together the tracks on the fly. The way he plays, incorporating more than just a laptop (there's that keyboard thingy he uses) and remixing on the fly makes for a rocking set. Also it means no 2 sets are ever the same. It's quite different to selecting ten tracks and pushing play for each one.

Brain · Post by **Brain** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 2:56 pm

That's very philosophical of you QR, but I never over-estimate the average punter - all they want is a good tune. Doesn't change the fact that pre-programming and pre-planning are totally different things though

Gliding High · Post by **Gliding High** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 3:12 pm

jbs wrote:So in Ableton selecting one long track and pushing play is bad, selecting ten tracks and pushing play for each one is OK?

No, I don't think that's how it works.

I'm guessing a good user of Abelton would have a good idea of what they are going to do, but when it comes to their style of mixing they would bring elements of each tune in seperately. Probabaly having the bulk of the tune ready to go, but adding different rhythms/fx and such as they went along.
A bad user of Abelton wouldn't do this, they just have whole songs placed one after the other on a sequencer grid, and there's no real skill involved because the software does most of the work for you. There's no musicianship involved whatsoever. You just have to know how to sync up the beats using the program, and have a very basic knowledge of EQ.
So, I guess if your performing your own tunes in a unique and entertaining way then Abelton is the way to go.
If your not doing that, it's probably better that your actually DJ'ing, and using your own mind to make the mix, and not a beatsync function.
I guess it's the nature of the business that the great majority of people really don't care, as long as they are having fun - and a lot of 'performers' don't care either, as long as they are getting their ego's stroked while getting paid too.
Personally, I couldn't sleep at night knowing I had just played a gig to hundreds of punters with very little effort on my part going into the way I did things in the booth. Where's the challenge in that?

Gliding High · Post by **Gliding High** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 3:15 pm

Brain wrote:That's very philosophical of you QR, but I never over-estimate the average punter - all they want is a good tune. Doesn't change the fact that pre-programming and pre-planning are totally different things though

my mofo

Post by **JAMESSSS** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:04 pm

How does a higher skill level make it better for the crowd?

I could mix between two DAT machines, which would be really hard. If I was really good at it it would produce the same aural result.

Wouldn't be any better though (maybe worse as I'd have less time left to think about other things).

quiet roar · Post by **quiet roar** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:25 pm

Brain wrote:That's very philosophical of you QR, but I never over-estimate the average punter - all they want is a good tune. Doesn't change the fact that pre-programming and pre-planning are totally different things though

Of course they are, but I was simply playing with the idea that the differences are largely immaterial, except to djs.

Gliding High · Post by **Gliding High** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:27 pm

jbs wrote:How does a higher skill level make it better for the crowd?

I could mix between two DAT machines, which would be really hard. If I was really good at it it would produce the same aural result.

Wouldn't be any better though (maybe worse as I'd have less time left to think about other things).

A good DJ makes all the difference for me personally.
I don't know what the rest of the world agrees on, but a good DJ with skills and good tune selection can make something out of nothing. Seen it happen a hundred times. Also, have seen the opposite, many, many times.
But there is still no explanation for Kid Kenobi. lol.

I would like to see you mix 2 DAT machines. Let me know when your going to do that shit, and I will be there

Post by **JAMESSSS** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:32 pm

Will let you know!

BEATS INC. · Post by **BEATS INC.** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:39 pm

Abelton? Mixing? WTF

Brain · Post by **Brain** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:47 pm

quiet roar wrote:
Brain wrote:That's very philosophical of you QR, but I never over-estimate the average punter - all they want is a good tune. Doesn't change the fact that pre-programming and pre-planning are totally different things though
Of course they are, but I was simply playing with the idea that the differences are largely immaterial, except to djs.

But you can say that about anyone who specialises in anything. It's not just a dj thing.

quiet roar · Post by **quiet roar** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:57 pm

^^ Indeed.

Brain · Post by **Brain** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:15 pm

quiet roar wrote:^^ Indeed.

Arrrrgh I hate it when you agree with me

SDF1 · Post by **SDF1** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:44 pm

there's youtubes of reel 2 reel beat matching. DATs would be kinda tricky tho.

I've seen Astroboy/Toby Fairbank do ableton mixes a couple of times. Re-editing tracks on the fly n proper layered mix styles, no pre-planned sets. Kicked arse over anything I'd seen on laptop hands down and he was at least 10 times busier than anyone mixing on 2 dex.

I don't see the argument for Serato over ableton or traktor really, if ur gonna be digital u should leverage the processing power of the computer to give you more creative control really. otherwise just use cds.

using a laptop to run serato's like if u bought a ps3, and spent the whole time playing namco arcade classics, cos it was cheaper than buying every arcade cabinet individually.

Post by **fooishbar** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:27 pm

SDF1 wrote:I don't see the argument for Serato over ableton or traktor really, if ur gonna be digital u should leverage the processing power of the computer to give you more creative control really. otherwise just use cds.

serato shits all over cdjs as far as i'm concerned. you get to see the waveforms and line them up much more easily, plus you don't have to go hunting for cds and balls these two tunes are both on the same cd. plus there's a heap of stuff you can do with serato but not cdjs. i don't see how putting wavs into ableton gives you any more 'creative control'. what are you going to do with them that's special enough that you couldn't do with serato?

SDF1 wrote:using a laptop to run serato's like if u bought a ps3, and spent the whole time playing namco arcade classics, cos it was cheaper than buying every arcade cabinet individually.

or like if you bought a multi-thousand dollar processing powerhouse to browse forums and facebook, play the occasional mp3, and be on msn. hang on ...

nic · Post by **nic** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:38 pm

has anyone here got a 'fully mouse - less' setup for abelton they use?

SDF1 · Post by **SDF1** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:43 pm

ableton has a better flow if u were actually going to re-edit, loop, re-mix on the fly. in the sense u have vst support so you could beef up something thats lacking, timestretch so you could put extra swing or quantize on looped sequences. throw vocal snippets in the mix, add completely new breakdowns, build up using arrays of fx.

there are a couple folk i've seen out there that have gone deep enough to do all that, and do it so quickly they can literally re-edit on the fly while cueing up the next tune.

Obviously its not suited towards all genres, but ur not going to get 16 channels running in serato for instance if u were really intent on breaking down trax and rebuilding them. Thats personally what i'd be doing if i was gonna lug a half decent spec lappy round town when gigging.

That said everytime i open ableton up for a decent stint i cbf working on other ppls trax, would rather crank the 101.

SDF1 · Post by **SDF1** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:43 pm

shit double post.

there's a few devices that'd allow u for mouse-less control. lemur touchscreen lcd comes to mind with custom presets. monolake built this giant mixing desk weapon which does the trick. could always do new presets on a a&h xone dj controller.

Post by **JAMESSSS** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 11:24 am

fooishbar wrote:i don't see how putting wavs into ableton gives you any more 'creative control'. what are you going to do with them that's special enough that you couldn't do with serato?

Because you don't have to waste your time mixing, you can offload that to the computer and spend your time concentrating on the live remix aspects.

It's about utilising the available technology to offload trivial tasks rather than emulating old technology.