The Iraq War

[kronz]

I dont think we have one of these yet, correct me if I'm wrong.


I'm shocked at how some people still support this and think that it was/is a good thing. Last night on lateline Tony Jones interviewed former US ambassador to the UN John Bolton. One thing that amazed me was how he and the american government (he being a representitive of them) think the war in Iraq has been beneficial.


This question by Tony Jones sums it up perfectly


TONY JONES: Let me ask for a personal reflection from you given that Iraq a major rallying point for Islamist terrorists, given the loss of American troops, given the losses of Iraqi civilians, the fact the country is in a civil war, given the blows to America's international prestige and the fact that Iran is now emerging as a dominant regional player that will probably go nuclear. Do you regard the Iraq war as a strategic victory or a strategic disaster?

JOHN BOLTON: Well, you've asked a lot of pieces in that question, not all of which I can probably remember to respond to. But let's just take the fundamental point of the question, was it right to overthrow Saddam Hussein? The answer to that seems to me to be unequivocally yes. The threat that Saddam posed, was having broken free of UN sanctions and UN inspectors would he have returned to possessing weapons of mass destruction and would he be a threat in the region and around the world? The answer is undoubtedly yes. And therefore eliminating his regime from Baghdad is in that a plus.


All i have to say is are you fucking stupid or what?

[mecka]

Didnt john bolton sing that song how can we be lovers if we cant be friends

[kronz]

That was michael bolton

[mecka]

ah, thanks for clearing that one up.

[Friday]

i don't think many informed officials really BELIEVE all of that anymore but they have to keep talking the spin to save face. they can't back down now.

and if they keep putting the spin on it and convincing the american people that it's th right thing they all those men and women will keep enlisting to go off and die and that's what they need...

the minute they admit defeat or that it wasn't the best thing to do then the US public who've lost loved ones will feel it was all pointless and will turn against them in droves.

[*catalyst]

I celebrate his entire catalogue.

Anywho.

I think its fundamentally flawed to use actions/violence to 'fight' against an idea...

[ghetto kitty]

the US public who've lost loved ones will feel it was all pointless and will turn against them in droves.

they kind of already have.
theres more dissent with the war percentage wise in the US now than support.

they are saving face to the world.

i have never agreed with the war, but my housie was pointing out that the US has a responsibility now kinda.
what happens if they pull the troops out tommorrow, would it be back to peace time there? and i think the answer is no.

they have to stay until they actually do make it safe perhaps??
(i still dont think any of us should be there, im playing devils advocate)

fucked either way.

[system]

i don't think many informed officials really BELIEVE all of that anymore but they have to keep talking the spin to save face. they can't back down now.

and if they keep putting the spin on it and convincing the american people that it's th right thing they all those men and women will keep enlisting to go off and die and that's what they need...

the minute they admit defeat or that it wasn't the best thing to do then the US public who've lost loved ones will feel it was all pointless and will turn against them in droves.

Happening anyway, but that would result in revolution.

[valuetime]

what happens if they pull the troops out tommorrow, would it be back to peace time there?

that's a crap republican talking point. of course it won't be back to normal. these people have been fucked in the ass by the US for 16 years, and by saddam for longer. now they've been unleashed against each other. there's absolutely nothing they can do for iraqis by staying there. if iraq had no oil (moot point, i know) they could declare victory and walk away like they did in vietnam.

http://www.commondreams.org/views07/0222-21.htm

[SoulWhiteMan]

I dont think we have one of these yet, correct me if I'm wrong.


I'm shocked at how some people still support this and think that it was/is a good thing. Last night on lateline Tony Jones interviewed former US ambassador to the UN John Bolton. One thing that amazed me was how he and the american government (he being a representitive of them) think the war in Iraq has been beneficial.


This question by Tony Jones sums it up perfectly


TONY JONES: Let me ask for a personal reflection from you given that Iraq a major rallying point for Islamist terrorists, given the loss of American troops, given the losses of Iraqi civilians, the fact the country is in a civil war, given the blows to America's international prestige and the fact that Iran is now emerging as a dominant regional player that will probably go nuclear. Do you regard the Iraq war as a strategic victory or a strategic disaster?

JOHN BOLTON: Well, you've asked a lot of pieces in that question, not all of which I can probably remember to respond to. But let's just take the fundamental point of the question, was it right to overthrow Saddam Hussein? The answer to that seems to me to be unequivocally yes. The threat that Saddam posed, was having broken free of UN sanctions and UN inspectors would he have returned to possessing weapons of mass destruction and would he be a threat in the region and around the world? The answer is undoubtedly yes. And therefore eliminating his regime from Baghdad is in that a plus.


All i have to say is are you fucking stupid or what?

Look, no one can deny overthrowing Saddam was a good thing.... BUT that may have been the only thing. Up until that point it was a very, very swift exercise... get in, snuff out Saddam.... get the fuck ou.....t......wait....hang on, we've disarmed the millitary, the guns have gone on the black market and the urban civillians and young men have fragmented on ethnic and religious lines.....

I think the comparison with Vietnam is valid; the United States army was trying to defeat a political ideology with the use of force.... In doing so they ignored the vast cultural complexities of vietnam, take Robert McNamaras guilt in 'the fog of war' : "They simply beleived we had replaced the french as a colonial power and were using our force to replace them.... And we saw the vietnam war as an extension of the cold war... not what it ACTUALLY was: A CIVIL WAR."

I actually thought that the war (even though i didn't agree with it) would be over with the fall of saddam, saddam's gone, you can claim "victory", now get the fuck outta there.... but that has obviously not been the case.

And the scary thing is, the United States has proved Osama Bin Laden right: the west is willing to destroy the world, and their way of life to serve their own interests:: Osama has been given the greatest recruiting resource in the world, one I think, was beyond his wildest dreams.

Now that we ARE there, I think it is repugnant to claim victory or progress more than I think it is disgraceful for Howard to claim Vietnam went well. Vietnam was a fucking fiasco and disgrace of international relations!!!

What to do? A slow, sustained withdrawel of troops is in order. Financial pressure and economic sanctions from the UN didn't work, but they were not the only tool that could have been used. Western Liberal democracy is not simply going to "spread" everywhere as Liberal economists beleive. There are a lot of BUILT IN contradictions in the system (we all know this, third world supression, wage drops, world systems theory, ra ra ra ra)
the Islamic world knows this too.

We can't simply say "fucken yanks, its their fault" nor can we be apologists for people who blow shit up and kill innocent civillians... but until the world is willing to accept this "war" as a clash of economic organisation (and not simply religious fanatacism and madmen) then there will be no real progress...

SWM

[ghetto kitty]

what happens if they pull the troops out tommorrow, would it be back to peace time there?

that's a crap republican talking point. of course it won't be back to normal.

i know, as i said, its not my view.

but did make me think.

i dont follow politics REALLY closely......

[drew]

the war in Iraq has been one of the biggest political fuckup in the i don’t know how long...

the reason why countries like GB/ Denmark are decreasing/ pull out their troops is not because there has been a 'strategic victory' with a hand over of power, its just they want to get the fuck out of there...

with the increased number of US troops in Baghdad, some of the civil fighting will spread to other provinces within iraq, namely in the south where the UK forces are, hence they want to bail out before more of their country men get killed in the name of this lame war… ill also mention that this is also where the majority of the Australian forces are stationed as well…

it is utterly frustrating to see governments here and abroad, who are still backing this war 100%, I have personally never supported this war, or the war in Afghanistan, which mind you has been left by the way side and now with spring coming there will probably be a huge offensive by the Taliban forces to control more territory in the south…

all I can say is props to SBS and the ABC for some quality programming of late. The ‘insight’ debate on david hicks (transcripts. http://news.sbs.com.au/insight/trans.php final repeat on Friday 2.30pm & Monday 2.30pm) was fanatic viewing and so has been many other programs/ interviews conducted on these two networks,…

[mixtress]

i don't think many informed officials really BELIEVE all of that anymore but they have to keep talking the spin to save face. they can't back down now.

This is the thing that SHITS me the most. The fact that although continuing is not the right thing to do, and a majority of people think it's well and truly time to back the fuck up, they 'can't' because they're 'saving face'.

Get your fucking ego's outta the fucking way and do what's right for the country/world/future...

Enough is enough is enough already

Oh, and Howard can suck on cocks.

[Lephrenic]

This photo never gets old.

[calstro]

^^^ Still one of the best photos I've seen...

[kronz]

all I can say is props to SBS and the ABC for some quality programming of late. The ‘insight’ debate on david hicks (transcripts. http://news.sbs.com.au/insight/trans.php final repeat on Friday 2.30pm & Monday 2.30pm) was fanatic viewing and so has been many other programs/ interviews conducted on these two networks,…

Just watched it.

[drew]

^^^ its fantasic isnt it! so of the best viewing i have seen in a long time...

if anyone missed it...

INSIGHT 7.30 TONIGHT SBS

[Dark Lord Piddle Bottom]

like with anything fucking if you pull out too early you wont reach a happy ending!!

[mixtress]

like with anything fucking if you pull out too early you wont reach a happy ending!!

BAM!

[system]

all I can say is props to SBS and the ABC for some quality programming of late. The ‘insight’ debate on david hicks (transcripts. http://news.sbs.com.au/insight/trans.php final repeat on Friday 2.30pm & Monday 2.30pm) was fanatic viewing and so has been many other programs/ interviews conducted on these two networks,…

Just watched it.

Watched it at lunch. Phillip Ruddock in flipflop shocker.

[RMHC]

[mixtress]

i Found the viewing on SBS and ABC to be horrific
Its a complete an utter fucking disgrace, It's been so clearly defined in recent conflicts in Afghanistan, Sudan, Somalia... Failed states... and for the benefit of who? the fucking asshole fucking fuck faces in the Republican party. An utter fucking disgrace... Im so insensed by what has happened to the world and our country in the last 6 years...

Yeah, but do you have an opinion on this??

[deviant]

good points SWM!!

[SoulWhiteMan]

studying anthropology and international relations will do that to ya

tiggus:
could you elaborate please??? if anything sbs and abc are the only critical voices in this country providing good analysis, with a bit of a lean towards labour party....

are you saying that failed states get a mention so the republican party can then go and "solve them" I'm not sure what you are trying to point out here?

[system]

The comparison with Vietnam is close, but the imperative to control oil assets (given the Saudi Arabia fiasco) in Iraq can't be denied.

[Stray]

The US didn't give a shit about what saddam was doing or if he had WMD's until he started selling oil in Euro's rather than US dollars.

The US economy relies on oil being sold in US dollars to keep it's value up.
If oil was sold in euros only, the US economy would crash.
They've been trading with a multi billion dollar deficit since ww2 and oil
is the major thing keeping them going.

This is why they invaded iraq.. WMD's was just a lame excuse.
And this is why they want to invade Iran, as Iran are proposing to sell all
their oil in euros only too.

[RMHC]

i Found the viewing on SBS and ABC to be horrific
Its a complete an utter fucking disgrace, It's been so clearly defined in recent conflicts in Afghanistan, Sudan, Somalia... Failed states... and for the benefit of who? the fucking asshole fucking fuck faces in the Republican party. An utter fucking disgrace... Im so insensed by what has happened to the world and our country in the last 6 years...

Yeah, but do you have an opinion on this??

haha yeah, its just an opinion not an argument.

[RMHC]

[drew]

i hear what ur trying to say tiggus, that yes, that the abc and even more so SBS are left wing in their views, but this latest episode of insight was a handled extremely well by Jenny Brockie and she gave everyone a fair go but still went in for the attact if it was there to be taken


oh eyah..... did anyone see the "oil on ice" or something on ABC last night, also quite good viewing to do with the oll fields in alaska...

[RMHC]

i hear what ur trying to say tiggus, that yes, that the abc and even more so SBS are left wing in their views, but this latest episode of insight was a handled extremely well by Jenny Brockie and she gave everyone a fair go but still went in for the attact if it was there to be taken


oh eyah..... did anyone see the "oil on ice" or something on ABC last night, also quite good viewing to do with the oll fields in alaska...

[nic]

Jenny and Tony Jones should make intelligent analytical and irreverent children together. Jenny goes allright and is a good complement to Tonys subtly sarcastic style

[drew]

bbbahhaha....and what u get its kevin rudd:teef:

[nic]

hmm lol
it probably is!
kevin is probably teh runt child tho

[spiral]

I found this interesting from another forum I frequent

If the United States mobilized their industrial base to wage total war, society would be much more involved than they are now.

The draft is detrimental to the modern war effort. Non-volunteer forces are next to useless on the modern battlefield. Perhaps when the total skill necessary in soldiering was lining up next to another clueless peasant, walking forward with your musket line abreast and shooting in the general direction you were told when you were told, conscipts could manage. But with the level of technological, tactical and sociological finess necessary to wage modern war, conscripts are a hindrance.

However, if American society had to actually (gasp) make a SACRIFICE for the war effort, then it would have much more impact.

I think it's insane that the United States doesn't currently have extended work hours, higher taxes and rationing when there's a war on. Canada too, our leaders are too weak, fickle and soft to impose the War Measures Act, even while we're fighting and dying for the benefit of the Afghan people and our own security.

The citizenry have no incentive to actually win the war;
They have no incentive to demand assurance that their cause is just;
Strategic resources (like food, fuel, steel) are wasted on consumer goods instead of the war effort
The soldiers are alienated when they return, feeling that they've unfairly shouldered the entire burden

Then its incumbent on the citizenry to oppose war that the citizenry doesn't want. If there's no consequence of war to the citizenry, then there's no incentive to NOT wage war, and there's no incentive to oppose unjustified war.

[drew]

hmm lol
it probably is!
kevin is probably teh runt child tho

i know...bit freaky ye???


but i still like rudd...havnt had much to dislike about his policy, and he's serving it up little johnny and johnny keeps fuckin up...... keeps me entertained

[Lephrenic]

They key quote for me is this one from the Project for a New Amercian Century's document "Rebuilding America's Defences: Strategy, Forces and Resources for a New Century".

Indeed the United States has for decades sought to play a more permanent role in Gulf regional security. While the unresolved conflict with Iraq provides the immediate justification, the need for a substantial American force presence in the Gulf transcends the issue of the regime of Saddam Hussein.

This is from September 2000, by the way, so it can't be called a reaction to 9/11.

[Hardy]

[SoulWhiteMan]

They key quote for me is this one from the Project for a New Amercian Century's document "Rebuilding America's Defences: Strategy, Forces and Resources for a New Century".

Indeed the United States has for decades sought to play a more permanent role in Gulf regional security. While the unresolved conflict with Iraq provides the immediate justification, the need for a substantial American force presence in the Gulf transcends the issue of the regime of Saddam Hussein.

This is from September 2000, by the way, so it can't be called a reaction to 9/11.

The fall of communism has given western liberal democracies the belief that democracy is "the right way, the only way" for the world and governments to operate.

The fall of communism lead to the idea that democracy would spread to the world..... however, it doesn't necessarily NEED to be spread to the world by guns? does it?

There are contradictions built into the capitalist system (for more information, go to a psy party and talk to a hippy) and these inherint contradictions will become more apparant...and cause it to fall down from within...

There is also the notion of "american exceptionalism" the idea that America's democracy (from liberation from england) created the ideal state: the perfect democracy (individual liberty, accountable government, fair taxes etc) since America was the "first" liberal, democratic state that was not bound by a religion (this came later) what happened was America thought itself to be the perfect model to spread to the world; by force if neccessary....

Thats what caused the cold war; conflicting economic ideologies facing off against each other....

[kronz]

failed state syndrome as evidence against Unilateral ideology being used in dealing with conflicts with nation states.

OMG the terminology. I haven't heared such academic banter since i was an IR student. Sorry tiggus, but i remember having to write like that. I also remember the catch phrase of my first year of IR was "nation atates".

Anyway carry on IR students I'm enjoying this its like I'm back at uni.

[unsoundbwoy]

the war was about more than just oil though right?
maintaining political hegemony in the middle east and upholding the industrial military complex

[spiral]

according to Dick Cheyney its about stopping the Muslim Domino affect, otherwsie we will be back to the 7th century with the whole of middle east and north africa muslim extremeists and stretching into asia all the way to indonesia, one giant muslim extermist empire.. can you smell the fear yet?

[SoulWhiteMan]

and they've got nukes and modern weapons of mass destruction, and they hate capitalism and our way of life and want christians to die and hate the west for living middle class lifestyles.....

oooogidy-booogidy-booooo!

[RMHC]

failed state syndrome as evidence against Unilateral ideology being used in dealing with conflicts with nation states.

OMG the terminology. I haven't heared such academic banter since i was an IR student. Sorry tiggus, but i remember having to write like that. I also remember the catch phrase of my first year of IR was "nation atates".

Anyway carry on IR students I'm enjoying this its like I'm back at uni.

[ADD_Boy]

"The Iraq war is for gheys man"

[kronz]

failed state syndrome as evidence against Unilateral ideology being used in dealing with conflicts with nation states.

OMG the terminology. I haven't heared such academic banter since i was an IR student. Sorry tiggus, but i remember having to write like that. I also remember the catch phrase of my first year of IR was "nation atates".

Anyway carry on IR students I'm enjoying this its like I'm back at uni.

its curse, my most hated that i use alot is "constructural framework"

dont forget you need a conceptual framework first

[SoulWhiteMan]

do one's used the word "postmodern" yet....

pffft.... call yourselves uni students!?!?!?!