New Tune - [Like What]

[LuKo]

any feedback on this breakbeat no. would be real handy

http://www.myspace.com/lukeryley

my mixdowns suck pretty hard sometimes....if peeps could point out where they think i am going wrong?

cheers

p.s - i guess you'd call ita general midi remix, as I have stolen and re-arranged one of his basslines ..thought i'd better add

[Snowie]

You know i like it bruva.

IMHO,

Bassline - good bassline, but it doesn't stand out enough in the mix, Maybe just bring the vol. up abit. Have you rolled the bassline off at 40hz ?, it just seems it's abit muddy with the kick. If the kick stood out abit more on the low end, and i mean lower than the bassline, thats it - absolute winner.

Roll kick off at 20hz
Bassline at 40hz
Add side compression, which i'm sure you already have.

I was looking for the big thump of the kick with a big phat bassline. Very close.Other than that small thing, GOLD, i like, arrangement wise, the whole lot.

I hope my ramblings help, i'll call ya tonight for a chat.

[LuKo]

cheers mate!

yeah as always the low-end is my trouble here

and listening back the drops to drop enuff ie, still too many elements

cheers

[spiral]

like it..

reminded me of crystal distortion

[Spherix]

i like it too

seems to almost go up in tempo gradually?

[nic]

i really quiet like it, didnt get boring at all and plenty of variations/sounds/ edits. bigger kick and some more bass?

[aerobiotic]

Roll kick off at 20hz
Bassline at 40hz
Add side compression, which i'm sure you already have.

I'll just say I like it...

[Snowie]

^^ And that helps him alot. Could you be anymore descriptive. What exactly did you like, what wasn't working for you, is it too busy is sections, which sections. All things that would of been better than it's good.

[LuKo]

thanks guys

spherix it doesnt move in tempo, but if it feels like it gets faster then i think thats a good thing.. like the tune is driving foorward all the time

spiral, that link man, is that your stuff? thats awesome, pity your in the UK, you would go well at aLive

[Direkt]

I really like it mate... energetic vibe to it... Wish I could listen to it on some better monitors, but I like what I'm hearing!

[LuKo]

cheers its been a week and a half, probably time to go back and re-mix it down with fresh ears

it needs some space inside the mix to breath, gonna strip a few things out

thanks for the feedback from everybody tho

[Spherix]

thanks guys

spherix it doesnt move in tempo, but if it feels like it gets faster then i think thats a good thing.. like the tune is driving foorward all the time

spiral, that link man, is that your stuff? thats awesome, pity your in the UK, you would go well at aLive

i reckon you culd make that forward moving vine smoother it seems almost jittry atm...maybe longer transitions

[spiral]

spiral, that link man, is that your stuff? thats awesome, pity your in the UK, you would go well at aLive

nah man, simon is a friend from way back, the sound of your track reminded me of his stuff

[grooki]

hey man, great bass there, reminds me of Flat Beat, by Mr Ozio, my favorite house track of all time I reckon the beat could have some changes, as it is the same from the very start, there is no progression. You could classicly filtre it, or do something else more creative. synth is ok, very minimal, it does not change the mood much but that's cool... I think also, to give it progression, if the track had evolving sounds, or as spherix said, longer transitions... the basics are solid, just needs a few little fxs, different percs or evolving sounds to keep it interesting. anyway good job though, certainly my kind of bass

[Smile on Impact]

Roll kick off at 20hz

hey dude.

there's nothing under 20hz

[Direkt]

Roll kick off at 20hz

hey dude.

there's nothing under 20hz

Only guessing but that might be his point, I.e. don't roll it off at 40Hz, roll it at 20....

[Smile on Impact]

Roll kick off at 20hz

hey dude.

there's nothing under 20hz

Only guessing but that might be his point, I.e. don't roll it off at 40Hz, roll it at 20....

16bit 44.1 cons Never produce a freq under 20hz.
it's a digital standard.
try makeing a 19hz sine wave in tools or any program.
it don't happen.

[LuKo]

thanks grooki, that (flat eric sounding one) is actually a newer track i just knocked out on the weekend "Amen 4 Aciid"

cheers for your comments and yes I think i will go back and add some more variation to the drums and add some little filter sweeps, delays etc to liven it up a bit, this was a first cut which i guess i was pretty happy with, i will be even happier once i have added the extra bells and whistles

thanks for the listen

[Snowie]

What i was meaning with the bassline roll it off higer than your kick drum.

Personally i roll my kick off at 20hz
then roll my basslines at 40hz
which leaves low end room for the kick to shine thru whilst not being muddy sounding.

I'm sure there are other ways, but it works for me and i can hear the improvement in the overall track.

[grooki]

What i was meaning with the bassline roll it off higer than your kick drum.

Personally i roll my kick off at 20hz
then roll my basslines at 40hz
which leaves low end room for the kick to shine thru whilst not being muddy sounding.

I'm sure there are other ways, but it works for me and i can hear the improvement in the overall track.

maybe im thinking too much of Dnb here, but wouldn't you want the low low frequencies to be the bass? I thought you roll the kick off much higher, and let the bass have the 40 hz... as it turns out though i think i listening to the wrong track, so maybe i should listen to the track everyone's talking about first...

[LuKo]

^ i was gonna say that...dont the DnB dudes keep the sub the lowest then either squeeze the kick in after that with the normal bass ontop of the kick (like a kik sandwich ) or even keep the kick sitting ontop of both the sub and bass layers ?

i dont make DNB so usually stick to setting similar to snowie, altho it changes every track (always experimenting!) and recently have been trying the kik sandwich

[Spherix]

You know i like it bruva.

IMHO,

Bassline - good bassline, but it doesn't stand out enough in the mix, Maybe just bring the vol. up abit. Have you rolled the bassline off at 40hz ?, it just seems it's abit muddy with the kick. If the kick stood out abit more on the low end, and i mean lower than the bassline, thats it - absolute winner.

Roll kick off at 20hz
Bassline at 40hz
Add side compression, which i'm sure you already have.

I was looking for the big thump of the kick with a big phat bassline. Very close.Other than that small thing, GOLD, i like, arrangement wise, the whole lot.

I hope my ramblings help, i'll call ya tonight for a chat.

why would you roll the kick off at a lower freq than the bassline, lol

id keep everything down to 20 in the bass, cut a small hole with a sharp Q for the kick in the bass EQ, so it has its own space

[unsoundbwoy]

notch eq!

[Spherix]

standrd

[Snowie]

But as stated above the production of dnb is slightly different breaks/electro, tho i'm not saying that your way is right or wrong, just many ways to do the same thing essentially. In breaks, Electro, house the kick is predominant, so i want the kick to have more of the low end right down to 20hz than my bass. In other styles, such as trance/techno i have have heard other producers do what youi have described. Horses for courses, all depends on the style of music being written, which techinques you need to use.

[Smile on Impact]

But as stated above the production of dnb is slightly different breaks/electro, tho i'm not saying that your way is right or wrong, just many ways to do the same thing essentially. In breaks, Electro, house the kick is predominant, so i want the kick to have more of the low end right down to 20hz than my bass. In other styles, such as trance/techno i have have heard other producers do what youi have described. Horses for courses, all depends on the style of music being written, which techinques you need to use.

but why the roll of at 20hz, when everything cuts out at 20hz anyway ?

[Snowie]

Habit, going from what i was told many years ago. I never stated my ways are the only correct way, i'm open to new methods and there reasons of how and why to use them. I am not a professional sound engineer, so any advice is welcomed.

[FoundationStepper]

id imagine information at 20 hz is quite possibly going to modulate and create harmonic or phase interfernce with other stuff, even though it might get taken out of the stream later

just a guess

[Direkt]

But as stated above the production of dnb is slightly different breaks/electro, tho i'm not saying that your way is right or wrong, just many ways to do the same thing essentially. In breaks, Electro, house the kick is predominant, so i want the kick to have more of the low end right down to 20hz than my bass. In other styles, such as trance/techno i have have heard other producers do what youi have described. Horses for courses, all depends on the style of music being written, which techinques you need to use.

but why the roll of at 20hz, when everything cuts out at 20hz anyway ?

Why do my anlaysers show frequencies present below 20Hz in a digital format? Not talking about this track, but just digital production in general... are they wrong? (not being a smartass, just wondering).

[FoundationStepper]

its to do with the issues around fast fourier transfom analysis i believe

basically unless you put some specific grunt into the processing of the bottom end in the RTA you will tend to get inaccurate information - this particualrly applies to real time analyisis

[Smile on Impact]

id imagine information at 20 hz is quite possibly going to modulate and create harmonic or phase interfernce with other stuff, even though it might get taken out of the stream later

just a guess

yeah I know what you mean.
that was an issue in tape days.
you need to bias the harmonics around 160 and 180hz because they can affect the freqs between 5-12khz.
but this is only while it's in the analogue realm.
by all means use a HPF at 20 on your pres but once it's digital. no problems.

[Smile on Impact]

Why do my anlaysers show frequencies present below 20Hz in a digital format? Not talking about this track, but just digital production in general... are they wrong? (not being a smartass, just wondering).

well the info is there, it's to do with the output conversion, as to why it's not produced.

[FoundationStepper]

Why do my anlaysers show frequencies present below 20Hz in a digital format? Not talking about this track, but just digital production in general... are they wrong? (not being a smartass, just wondering).

well the info is there, it's to do with the output conversion, as to why it's not produced.

nope not necessarily....

from memory, a RTA would typically use a FFT analysis to show the spectrum

the window size (packet of data) used by this process needs to be of a certain small finite size in order to accurately trace and display high freuency information. (basicially it grabs packets of data, looks at the ramps etc togive a real time result of the energy at differnt contents)

becuase this size is small, its not great to get a "trace" of the curve/rise/decay of lower freuency sounds, becuase thier evolution in the time domain takes so much longer...

so it can spit out erroneous data on low freuency content


now this is my shaky memory on this, so please someone correct me - im starting to look into this becuase i specifically want to perform RTA at 20-80 Hz and off the shelf options arent cutting it for me

edit
there is something about the amount of bins as well, and how the freuencies you can get information on are related to the sample rate...

i get the feeling i might be talking out my arse but is roughly on the right track? there is an issue from what ive seen...

[FoundationStepper]

id imagine information at 20 hz is quite possibly going to modulate and create harmonic or phase interfernce with other stuff, even though it might get taken out of the stream later

just a guess

yeah I know what you mean.
that was an issue in tape days.
you need to bias the harmonics around 160 and 180hz because they can affect the freqs between 5-12khz.
but this is only while it's in the analogue realm.
by all means use a HPF at 20 on your pres but once it's digital. no problems.

are you sure? cos even "virtual" waveforms interact in an analogue way - for example phase issues... why wouldnt you get the same effect?

[Smile on Impact]

are you sure? cos even "virtual" waveforms interact in an analogue way - for example phase issues... why wouldnt you get the same effect?

phase issues is just math.
it's adding positive values to neg ones and getting a result.
re: weather <19hz freqs affect higher freqs arfter output convertion,
I don't know.
you'd have to do a test.

[FoundationStepper]

im talking pre output convesion really

the interation and effect (and issues) ocuring before they get filtered out by the DAC or system

oh and its not just pos and negative values with phase - its 360 degrees of offset, not just "in phase" and "out of phse"

but you knew that

[Smile on Impact]

im talking pre output convesion really

the interation and effect (and issues) ocuring before they get filtered out by the DAC or system

oh and its not just pos and negative values with phase - its 360 degrees of offset, not just "in phase" and "out of phse"

but you knew that

we can play this game, but unless someone does a test it's not really gonna help.
and it's about what you hear right?
so i gues my point is.
did snowie say roll the kick off at 20hz because he could hear somthing unwanted going on under there?. or is it a generic process.?
personally i didn't think it was ness
I would just push a little more bite into the kick maybe 4-6khz.

[Snowie]

Generic process

[Direkt]

sweaty gonads

[FoundationStepper]

I spoke to a dude about this and really his POV was that is you are doing a linear mix with no compression etc it wouldn’t in theory be a problem.

But his point was the effect the lower frequency signals may have on compression – either a dedicated compressor to that channel, or perhaps the compression on the main mix – it will be interfering with and modulating these… effecting signals in the audible domain. And you may get similar effects on cluttering up reverb, exciters etc as well?

No im not going to test this but its interesting ideas I guess


im not purporting to konw anything about this really

[TheBrains]

I love all this tech stuff...

...And regarding the filtering out of low frequencies, it makes sense to me. I think that Snowie's suggestion is a reasonable guideline in theory; high passing kick and bass at different frequencies would provide more mix headroom which is clearly important especially if your intention is punch and greater perceived loudness.

Don't get me wrong, I like bass but I like the illusion of bass alot more - its easier to mix IMO.

The Britney tune "over protected" has a huge punchy bass sound without heaps of actual bass. When you put it through analysis, the bass line actually has the harmonics of the fundamental notes enhanced rather than boosting the fundamental itself. Huge mix, very clear and punchy as well. The bass note fundamentals are present but the mixer has been very selective in using available headroom and frequency range which I think is the ultimate aim of Snowie's suggestion: be selective about what is enhanced and what is reduced and I would add to that by advising to equalise harmonically for an increase in clarity and percieved loudness rather than boosting the fundamental or sweeping for sweet spots and if you don't need a range of frequencies then go ahead and cut it.

BT says in an EQ mag interview to cut all sounds after 120hz, except kick and bass. Might be drastic but he can mix pretty well I s'pose.
http://www.eqmag.com/story.asp?sectionc ... ycode=9903 (good tips and eq stuff is down the bottom of the page)

EDIT: Oops, getting off topic a bit. Will listen to your tune and post feedback soon.

[FoundationStepper]

there is also the psychoacoustic effect of the "missing fundamental"

[FoundationStepper]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_fundamental

there ya go

im sure there is a fomula to work on for this - making it sound bassy without actual bass/sub

[Snowie]

Very interesting

[LuKo]

I would add to that by advising to equalise harmonically for an increase in clarity and percieved loudness rather than boosting the fundamental or sweeping for sweet spots and if you don't need a range of frequencies then go ahead and cut it..

how would one go about doing this... can you go explain a bit more about the eq'ing the harmonics,

example, say i had a Bass in a track hitting its high points in a frequency analyser at around 50-60 Hz , and is written in 'C'

how would i determine what to cut or boost to keep with the harmonic eq'ing principle?

[TheBrains]

^^
Good question - I guess I would have to hear the mix to know what should stay and what should go but the basic idea is this: If the fundamental note is 60hz, fundamental meaning the dominant frequency or pitch of the note, then the first order harmonic is double that: 120hz; second harmonic is 240hz; third is 480hz and so on. You *could* boost these harmonic frequencies to "support" the fundamental and make it more prominent without actually boosting the fundamental note itself. With a bass note, the psycho-acoustic effect would be to hear more bass without actually having more bass in the mix. Your source sound actually has to have those harmonics present though. If your bass has been low passed at 100hz then there is not going to be any harmonics to boost.

Your example:

60hz fundamental
120hz 1st harm
240 2nd harm
480 3rd harm
960 4th harm
etc...

You might add a little at 240 and then a little bit more at 960 or something like that. My advice would be not to add too much to the 1st harmonic - especially if its wide bandwith eq - it can get a little lumpy for bass.

This works because our feeble human brains are so accustomed to the harmonic relationships in music and in sound in general, we're fooled into thinking the bass has been boosted or is somehow more *there* or something.

Just about all sounds that occur in nature (and a bunch of electronic sounds) derive their texutre from the complex relationships of harmonics - the great thing about pitched sounds is that the fundamental note is much clearer and the harmonics are more easily discerned.

Analyse a few Atlanta hip hop records or the hyper produced RNB of Timbaland etc. or anything by britney, christina etc. You often find that when the bass note hits that the harmonics pop out as well - tight bandwidth peaks just poking out of the mix. I would suppose that this might get used in DNB or breaks but I haven't checked any tracks out.

[FoundationStepper]

good one brains

same principles at the missing fundamental of course

but shouldnt the approach be a little more tailored to the dominant harmonic frequencies of the instument in question - rather than boosting all harmonics? its these variations in harmonic makeup which change the timbre of the instument in the first place...

[edit] thinking again - if you boost all harmonics equally then the spectral makeup/ratios will stiff be maintained I guess - so i think ive answered my own question]

on a tangent, do you know much about how composite resonators work compared with additive synthesis?

[LuKo]

also that BT interview, as vague as it is - is really good, you got any more links to 'secrets revealed ' type reading

I would love to hear rthe full interview of that , and not the completely watered down version

[TheBrains]

^^
You're absolutely right Foundationstepper, I may have been unclear in my post. I certainly don't advocate all harmonics should be boosted. Each sound will need an individual approach depending on the how strongly each harmonic is represented and the needs of the mix itself.

It was probably a bit impractical of me to say: "try boosting this" or "I would boost this" etc. Apologies for any confusion

I haven't heard of composite resonators, what are they? Sounds like some kind of sympathetic oscillation thing - for pads or drones or something maybe - just guessing.

LuKo: I stumbled across that article by mistake unfortunately but if I come across anything else I'll let you know. http://www.dogsonacid.com is very good - the producer QnAs in the Grid section are great.

[LuKo]

yep luv tha dogz! great stuff round there